Walking Through the Dark Nights of the Soul with Grace: A Conversation with Dr. Rola Hallam

In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Rola Hallam, a doctor, activist, and humanitarian whose life was reshaped by the Syrian war. As a frontline doctor working on medical missions in Syria, Rola confronted unimaginable devastation, and her own experience of trauma eventually pushed her toward a profound spiritual awakening. 

Rola opens up about finding peace through Buddhism, rediscovering Islam through Sufism, and how reciting the beautiful names of the Divine became her guide to healing. In this intimate conversation, Rola’s journey from burnout to renewal shows the power of facing our hardest moments—and how spirituality can anchor us through it all.

Dr. Rola Hallam is the first Syrian TED Fellow and a renowned humanitarian, social entrepreneur, and NGO leader. She has supported frontline health workers in war-torn communities, helping build seven hospitals in Syria and reaching over 4 million people. Rola speaks on transformative topics such as authentic communication, balancing impact with well-being, and trauma-informed leadership. She offers strategies for overcoming burnout through nervous system regulation and self-compassion, guiding leaders to build resilient, thriving organisations. Her talks have inspired over 12 million viewers across platforms like TED, Google, and Women in the World. 

Connect with Rola at drrolahallam.com.

Transcript

Rose Aslan (0:1.514)

Assalamu alaikum, Rola, and welcome to Rahma with Rose. It's such a delight to have you on the show today.

Dr Rola Hallam (0:10.515)

Thank you for having me. I'm delighted and excited.

Rose Aslan (0:11.766)

Yeah, likewise. to give context, we met at the Musar Ma'ir Salon retreat in Urjiva in Spain in Andalusia earlier this year. And we just really had this beautiful connection. And I was just blown away by your sharing of your poetry and your writings and the really deep, heartfelt expression and the spirituality and the wisdom that you were sharing with us.

I've just really been enamored by your work and by you since then. And it's such a pleasure to have you on the show because I love showcasing brilliant heart centered women. And you're just one of these amazing women who's just radiating your brilliance. So thank you.

Dr Rola Hallam (1:0.907)

Thank you, what a glorious start. I hope we're not about to let down your audience. Let's see what happens. We'll let them be the judge.

Rose Aslan (1:5.004)

Definitely not. That's impossible with you.

Yeah, yes. So as you know, I always start with the first question. Can you remember when you first started getting interested in spirituality?

Dr Rola Hallam (1:20.625)

Hmm, such a great question because it's, I think it leads me to want to make that like distinction that we all know of and yet we all have to find it for ourselves which is the difference between kind of religion and spirituality, right? So I was brought up in Syria to Muslim parents and so Islam was always in my life. But I would say that

as with so many of your brilliant guests that you've had on before, you know, it was often in the shape and form of do this and don't do that. It was, what were the prohibitions? What were the things that you need to do and shouldn't do? I felt like it was devoid of the spirituality, actually. It was, for me, all about discipline.

Rose Aslan (2:15.832)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (2:17.424)

with very little devotion. And so I would say that it was well into the war in Syria and shortly after my divorce that I really started to seek.

Rose Aslan (2:35.768)

Hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (2:37.211)

And actually my kind of true foray into spirituality was through Buddhism because I wanted to cultivate compassion. kind of felt very guided and knew that compassion was a big key for me personally in the world. And I found their teachings much more accessible and available and

Rose Aslan (2:53.720)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (2:59.864)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (3:3.941)

and guiding on that. So it was really through that door that I went into spirituality and was doing a lot of those practices. But there was always this thing that was sort of missing for me, that not so small thing called God, you know, it was not there. And so it was really through that journey, I would say that at some point I then by God's grace, by God's rahmah actually had my

my spiritual awakening, what I call my Sufi awakening. And that was now five years ago.

Rose Aslan (3:35.531)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (3:39.768)

MashaAllah. So thank you for sharing that. And I feel a lot of resonance with that story, having also gone through Buddhism first and into Sufism and Islam. So tell us first, before we get into Islam and Sufism, tell us how did you kind of come across Buddhism and what did it do for you then? Because we also want to explore spiritualities outside Islam. How did that happen?

Dr Rola Hallam (4:2.043)

Yeah, so I would say that the very first thing that actually happened was I started to meditate. And that was really my desperate plea and a desperate move on my part when I was really the thinker of the war on civilians in Syria. It was the think of my humanitarian work over there. I was doing loads of medical missions in and out of Syria from England where I was then based.

And my insomnia, which had always been an issue, had gone off the charts. And so I started to look for ways to sort of better manage it. And so that's when I came across meditation. And so I started to meditate. So it really was like at that point a wellbeing practice. So then when I started to, like I said, kind of delve and duck around, you know, compassion and who's teaching on it. And I found the writings of Pema children.

Rose Aslan (4:47.340)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (5:1.698)

Mm.

Dr Rola Hallam (5:2.159)

And that was when I started to really kind of read her books and from there kind of read other authors, other teachers and do those practices. And I felt like, I still kind of feel that about Islam is that there was a contemporary voice to an ancient tradition. And these people were bridging these ancient teachings in a way that I could understand them in the 21st century.

Rose Aslan (5:22.968)

Hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (5:31.387)

and were kind of being humanized in a way that I was finding and still find difficult in Islam to some extent or another. And so I felt like, yes, it was that humanization, it was that relatability, but it was also like that guidance that felt easy to do and sort of really inviting you to connect in, right? Like it was...

Rose Aslan (5:33.528)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (5:41.527)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (5:55.831)

Hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (5:59.783)

The compassion practices that I was doing was really about like recognizing your own suffering. Whereas in Islam up till that point, I've been taught like, okay, you're, you know, anything's not good. Okay, go and pray. And now I can see the solace of it. Now that I've got that devotion, now that I've got the spiritual connection, that does work now. But back then it didn't. And so I kind of felt like I had to go through

Rose Aslan (6:14.188)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (6:20.236)

Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (6:28.286)

these other guidances somehow on route to connecting with it from deep within.

Rose Aslan (6:35.862)

Yeah, I'm so curious about this because I've come across a lot of people who have similar experiences and on this podcast, a number of my guests have also gone through Buddhism before they came either to Islam or from Islam to Buddhism back to Islam, right? So when you were a young adult, what relationship did you have with Islam, if at all, other than knowing that it's like this disciplinarian religion?

What pushed you away?

Dr Rola Hallam (7:2.941)

So we would, so my mom, now my dad is practicing but it was really my mom that was the practicing Muslim in the house. So was her who really kind of invited us into fasting and into prayer. So I would say that as a young,

Rose Aslan (7:16.440)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (7:26.171)

As a teenager, that's what I was doing while I was basically under the roof of my parents. And then as soon as I went to university, that all went out the window. And I would say I would pretty much all but lost that religiosity and connection to it. But I would say now looking back, that belief, was, everything was stripped away except my belief in God.

Rose Aslan (7:32.184)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (7:39.510)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (7:46.648)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (7:54.956)

Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (7:57.211)

It was like I couldn't and didn't follow a structure. But there was this absolute faith in God and belief in God. But it didn't have a name, a practice, ritual, anything attached to it. didn't really have, I would say it was a mental belief and not the heartfelt taqwa.

Rose Aslan (8:0.408)

you

Rose Aslan (8:14.346)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (8:19.839)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (8:23.448)

Hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (8:25.211)

and kind of Allah and God's consciousness that I feel now. So it felt much more like, yeah, that mental connection as opposed to a heartful connection.

Rose Aslan (8:28.310)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (8:33.504)

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is really important for people to hear, right? Because a lot of people, especially Muslims, assume that if you're born Muslim, you're raised Muslim, you'll stay Muslim in it. And I think it's very valuable that the fact that many people do leave and or feel very disconnected for a lot of different reasons. And it's important to listen to these stories and to hear why. are the reasons? You know, if it's like a fear motivated approach.

and you're doing things out of fear. Like what was it that really kept you from going back to what you were brought up with for all those years?

Dr Rola Hallam (9:15.123)

So I didn't know this at the time. It's only now 20 years later that I know that childhood trauma and trauma in general, but definitely my childhood trauma and my absolute anger with God that I think took me away from there. And this was definitely not conscious.

Rose Aslan (9:21.368)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (9:35.414)

Hmm.

Rose Aslan (9:42.626)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (9:43.001)

I didn't know this. is literally, like I said, a kind of a 20 year journey that culminated in connecting with those parts within me that still didn't feel that connection and just connecting with the most horror, terror and sheer desperate pain that you then realized, wow, there has always been this part of me that felt abandoned by God. And

Rose Aslan (9:45.558)

No, no, no.

Rose Aslan (10:1.976)

Mm.

Dr Rola Hallam (10:12.389)

and turned away from God essentially.

Rose Aslan (10:14.176)

Yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing because that's a very vulnerable thing to share about having had this anger with God, right? I think actually quite a few people do experience this because it's hard to disconnect God from the patriarchal structures of religion and certain interpretations that often can feel oppressive to us and God, right? So how did that...

How do you think about the anger with God now when you look back at like you had you're angry with God and I wonder what you would tell that younger self to who is angry with God.

Dr Rola Hallam (10:54.065)

But I think this is the point, that younger self didn't think she was angry with God. And I think this is a really important point. So for some people, and I now see this with clients who I work with or with friends and colleagues, I feel like sometimes when you've been so bitterly disappointed, when you really did feel a deep sense of abandonment by God, by humans, just everyone and anything,

Rose Aslan (10:58.359)

Mmm, yeah.

Rose Aslan (11:3.607)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (11:9.592)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (11:23.185)

it actually becomes much easier to turn away from it. It's actually easier to not believe in God, although Alhamdulillah that was never me fully, but it's easier to not believe in God than to believe in a God that allowed horrible things to happen to you and seemingly didn't send you any support when you really needed it.

Rose Aslan (11:40.692)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's a really important point, Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (11:43.685)

So that me wasn't angry. That me just was like, oh, I don't know. I'm not sure what I think. I'm not sure what I believe. Oh, hello, alcohol. Hello, fun. Hello, all these other things that actually, on the face of it, seem to be, well, much more fun and much more, you know, now again, in retrospect, I understand and fully know why my traumatized self went there.

Rose Aslan (11:55.000)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (12:4.376)

Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (12:11.911)

I have a deep amount of compassion for my younger self who was very wild and wayward. And I now have connected to that deep pain that she felt. And frankly, I'm not surprised that she and many others go down that path. I'm just so happy that by Allah's rahmah, he saved me.

Rose Aslan (12:14.456)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (12:36.237)

Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (12:38.743)

But to your question, know, when people say to me either that they're having their faith questioned in God, you know, I work in war zones, right? And so I'm often working with people who experience deep traumas themselves, who do ask the question like, why is God letting this happen? Or why has this happened to me? Or they feel their connection has waned or they feel that anger. I'm like, take it all to God.

Rose Aslan (12:49.944)

Thanks.

Dr Rola Hallam (13:3.751)

Allah is Al Rahman Al Raheem, He is Al Wasi'a, He is Al Aziz, He Jabbar, He can handle all that you can give Him and more, He already knows what's in your heart anyway. You're only going to be speaking it out loud for you. Allah knows your pain, Allah knows what happened to you, Allah knows more than you what happened to you. He knows all your anger, all your belief, all your disbelief.

Dr Rola Hallam (13:29.939)

But I just invite all of us to take it to that conversation, even if it's literally, I'm so angry, I'm shouting, I'm screaming. He is a Rahman al Rahim. He is literally the best therapist. He is al Shafi. So, you know, what my clients, I have so many clients who work on war zones, you know, they tell me therapists can't handle hearing what they've got to say. I'm like, take it to Allah.

you can handle everything you've got to and more.

Rose Aslan (13:55.884)

Yeah, I just want to hold space for what you just shared. It's really vulnerable and really important because among Muslims, it's just not spoken about very much, know, going wayward as you said, feeling angry, voicing your frustrations, and then the reminder that it's all in the knowledge of God, right? It just...

and to hear that.

Yeah, so I just feel that really strongly. So you mentioned that you went from growing up in this very rigid environment and then you went your wayward ways as a youth and just enjoyed being a young person in the UK. And then you found Buddhism when you were at the height of doing this service to support people with medical missions into Syria during the war. And then

something happened and you've discovered the rahmah of Allah. Tell us more about that, what happened there and maybe more a little bit what you doing in Syria too.

Dr Rola Hallam (15:7.187)

So.

So this is five years ago now. And by then, it had been eight relentless years of working in Syria, working as a doctor, as a humanitarian, as a human rights activist. And so my work was either doing medical missions. I had set up a social enterprise to get funding to the front lines to doctors, nurses, and aid workers who were

Rose Aslan (15:10.661)

So.

Dr Rola Hallam (15:39.283)

actually doing the majority of the humanitarian work, but not getting any of the international funding, right? And so you could say that, you know, have completely upturned my life, right? I was a doctor. I am a doctor still. I'm an anesthetist and intensive care doctor. So, you know, really my work up until that point had been in the operating theater in a hospital. And I kind of thought I was heading for doing

child health development in Sub-Saharan Africa. That was where my work was really mostly. So I was doing a lot of work in Uganda, but not only also in that region. And then the revolution, the war and sub-Hanaulai, bit by bit, my work and my life completely changed. We thought it was gonna be a few days, maybe few weeks, maybe a few months and you know.

the violence very much is continuing to this day in some areas,

So 2019, was unbeknownst to me just pre-burnout. Again, the beauty of hindsight, right? So I was absolutely exhausted and yet absolutely filled to the brim with guilt and shame that stopped me from doing anything that was remotely self-caring.

anything that was remotely, anything except driving myself forward at 100 miles an hour. You know, I was a woman on a mission and I was living up to it in so many ways. I'd helped to build seven hospitals in Syria. It was impacting millions of people, Alhamdulillah. But I was exhausted and I think

Dr Rola Hallam (17:37.489)

Allah knows again what's in your heart. I think I was also feeling a little bit lost and a bit dejected. And there was definitely a deep sense of disappointment in humanity.

You know, over 30 members of my extended family had been killed in Syria. And so even though I was sort of full of action and, you know, even my organization that I created was called Can Do, right? It was all about doing. This is how I was scoping. I was scoping by doing. But I was really struggling in lots of ways, especially spiritually, but not only. And then, and so, and this is when, you know,

by Allah's rahmah, I really think of it as God saving me. I remember so vividly, I was sitting, it was one evening, it was Ramadan, I was not fasting. At that point, had prayed the off time, but I hadn't really had a regular praying practice for over 10 years. And sitting one evening, I'm talking to my husband and...

All of a sudden, I am gotten up and I hear myself saying, I'm going to pray. And I walk over like it was the most normal thing that I do all the time. And I did my will do and I started to pray.

And then after that, it was almost like you'd come out of a dream. You know, when you kind of wake up, there was almost like this, like...

Dr Rola Hallam (19:15.837)

What? What?

Dr Rola Hallam (19:20.285)

SubhanAllah, it was remarkable. I literally felt like a puppet, you know, like you have got the strings and you kind of, I was moved. Like it was something was thrown into my heart that made me say those words with full yaqeen. There wasn't even, it wasn't even like maybe I should, there was no thinking, zero thinking. It was just an absolute like knowing a decision that did not come from here. Totally bypassed my mind. And after that I was like,

Whoa.

Dr Rola Hallam (19:54.233)

Okay, I need to know what happened there, you know? And it was, subhanAllah, I haven't missed my regular prayers since that day five days ago. And it was that absolute shift from how any practice, any religious practice had been out of discipline and suddenly it became from a place of devotion. Overnight, in an instant,

because of just the sheer majesty, the omnipotent power that I was moved in that way, led to do that in that way with such, yeah, with such knowing, with such like faith and yaqeen. So that really started me on my journey of who are you Allah? You know, who is this divine? Who is it that moved me, made me speak, made me do?

Rose Aslan (20:24.603)

you

Dr Rola Hallam (20:50.513)

when I was nowhere near that, really. Or maybe he knew I was closer than I thought, I don't know. But to my human limited mind, I felt like I was nowhere there.

Rose Aslan (21:4.123)

What a story to actually feel that your body was led to engage in prayer practices, right? So some people are are invited by someone else, but you were invited by your own body. It felt that it was something that wanted to do, essentially. For someone who is struggling with prayer, most some, for example, how would you advise them to get back to prayer if they've been away for a long time? Not everyone is able to experience what you were able to experience.

How does one get back?

Dr Rola Hallam (21:40.531)

I think that...

We as humans can do things from a place of discipline. We can discipline ourselves, right? If you're a strong-willed person, which I was, right? You can really, if there's a will, there's a way. And if you really wanted to discipline yourself, you can.

Dr Rola Hallam (22:9.181)

But I would not recommend that route necessarily, because I feel like that's exactly the kind of thing that gets us doing things just in terms of a movement. It's just like shakli as we say in Arabic, right? It's just the form, it's just the way that it looks, but it has no heart. And Allah will know if you have no khushuah, Allah will know if there is no taqwa, Allah will know if you don't have that faith, that belief, right?

Dr Rola Hallam (22:40.473)

None of us.

can create grace. None of us can really create that devotion. It's God's grace that creates that devotion in our heart. That's why we have to say Alhamdulillah a million times a day and it's still never enough, right? Because I know for a fact that it was God who got me up to pray that day, right? God knows if I ever would have done that for myself, you know? But I do think, so whilst I don't think that you can...

actually create your own enlightenment or your own spiritual awakening, that's by God's grace. I think you can make yourself prone to it. And that's where sincere seeking comes in. You know, so if you're really not, if you're, if you are wanting to strengthen your connection, I love the Munajah with Allah, so Azawajal. You know, like speaking to him, having a conversation with God. I mean, I'm now speaking to God like,

Rose Aslan (23:31.579)

Conversations with yeah

Dr Rola Hallam (23:36.467)

Probably more than I speak to my husband, definitely more than I speak to my parents, right? All sorts of nuisance and nonsense. mean, only God knows what he does think of some of the stuff I say, but you know, when I'm doing my daily practice, if I feel like I'm not really connected in the middle of my practice, I would stop and I would say, you know, Allah, I don't feel connected. What is veiling me from you? Why do I not feel connected? I would just ad lib.

I would literally just speak fully authentic. I would come out of my official dua. I would come out of my official zikr and like chat.

And here's what I've noticed, almost 99 % of the time when you really come with that sincerity.

when you are really bringing a worshipful heart, even if you're not feeling the connection, but the intention for worship is there, the intention for connection is there, that's when you make yourself grace-prone. And then the rest is for Allah. And we know from the Hadith Qudsi, right? If we walk towards God, He's gonna come running to us.

Rose Aslan (24:48.954)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (24:52.625)

Right? Like we know that if you take one step towards God, he's going to take so many more steps towards you. So for me, it's like meet yourself where you're at, have those conversations, have that sincerity, set the intention, do your small actions that you can. You can even say, oh Lord, I want to pray, but I don't feel it in me. I don't feel the connection. Help me to pray.

Help me to pray. I was doing that for my Fajr Salah. I found it very easy to connect with my other Salah about Fajr. Man, oh man, you know, it's better than sleeping and yet the body's like, no, I want to sleep. Right? So when I was struggling with that, I was like, yeah, Allah, I want to get up for Fajr. The intention's there, the sincerity is there, but I'm struggling. Only you can help me to get up for Fajr. Please help me to get up for Fajr. You know? And so I think we just ask, we pray.

Rose Aslan (25:46.287)

What is it about prayer for you that seems to be the most elemental part of Islam? I ask this because I gave a book talk recently about my book about prayer among Muslim Americans and a woman, lovely woman who's a practicing Muslim asked me a question about Khushu'a, about this experiencing this awe and connection with the divine and she mentioned she only experienced it once in all her life in prayer and the way you're describing it, it's such a

regular occurrence. What is about prayer that's so important to you and how do you obtain this Khashua on a regular basis?

Dr Rola Hallam (26:27.964)

Hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (26:35.579)

I, that's such a good question. Let's start with this. Okay, so let's start with after that awakening and then I started to kind of pray and I started to see the next landmark thing that happened. And so panala, God gifted me my daughter. I found out I was pregnant in the same month as that spiritual awakening after nine years of infertility. So it was really a very big month.

He was really gifting me these incredible, incredible gifts. But it would be after Naya was born and in the pandemic, my charity was struggling, it was folding and that's really when my burnout hit and I felt like I really bottomed out. And it would take, it would take me almost falling apart essentially slash falling apart. It really take.

that lowest of low times for me to realize just how much trauma and grief I had accumulated from 10 years of working on the Syria response. And now in hindsight realizing there was so much childhood trauma, but it would take that dark night of the soul.

to really connect me at the next level of Khushuah, the next level of Taqwa. And that for me came from a guidance that I received to start meditating on Allah's 99 names.

And again, it was just gifted to me that I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, you know, I don't know if you've ever been in that situation when you're so burnt out, you feel broken, you feel lost, you feel trapped. literally just didn't, even though I was a medical doctor and I felt like I should know what to do, I had no idea.

Rose Aslan (28:28.848)

Yep.

Dr Rola Hallam (28:30.941)

You know what I mean, right? Yeah. So then I get this like, oh, I should get to know who God is through Asma'Allah al-Husna. So I'm like, okay, doesn't seem immediately relevant, but okay, bought a book and switched my, the compassion Buddhist practice that I was still doing, switched it to doing 20 minutes of one of Asma'Allah al-Husna. Okay, so every day,

Rose Aslan (28:31.183)

been there.

Rose Aslan (28:41.657)

on names of God.

Rose Aslan (28:57.595)

Mm.

Dr Rola Hallam (29:0.177)

and this remains my practice now, I would take one of the names and I would just repeat it out loud for myself 20 minutes a day, right? And now it's become much longer, but so you would say, Ya Rahman, Ya Rahman, Ya Rahman, and I would say it out loud, on repeat.

Oh my goodness. I mean, that's really where the true transformation was. And that's where the true healing began.

That's where my practice took that next level of transformation. And it remains my daily practice and my practice whenever I'm in trouble, whenever I'm, you know, have any issues, any problems. Now with everything happened in Palestine and Lebanon and still going on in Syria, you know, during those moments of deep and profound pain, that is still the practice that I do. And I think that the more that you turn to Allah, the more that you're,

the more that Allah is there in your heart, the more that you find it easy to turn to Allah and it becomes this like positive cycle. Does that make sense? And so I think for me, this is a very long answer to saying my practice isn't just my five prayers a day.

Rose Aslan (30:12.432)

Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (30:22.695)

And it is not just a practice of let me do this to please Allah, otherwise Allah is going to be angry with me. It is a genuine wish and want to connect, to worship, to get to know Allah and therefore to get to know us, right? Because we are meant to embody those names. We are meant to really embody these names. So it becomes this practice of like,

Rose Aslan (30:40.027)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (30:47.559)

Ya Allah, I want to know you and I want to know the divine in me and I aspire and wish to better myself in service of you. So I feel like again, we're going back to that sincere intention that we were talking about just before.

Rose Aslan (31:4.975)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. really appreciate you sharing from this perspective. think in a lot of Muslim circles, it's often reward based, right? You do this, you get rewards. And if you don't do this or if you do a bad thing, you're punished, right? And so it's like a point system. It's reciprocity. If I pray, then I'll get this in return. And I think what you're saying is actually it's not that at all. It's just how do you want to live your life? And if you just do these things, they help you.

and their gifts given to us by the divine to elevate us in our lives. this different. I relate to something a lot of Muslims usually view it.

Dr Rola Hallam (31:45.211)

Absolutely. It's almost like the gamification of spirituality. You do it for five times in a row and you will get this badge, you know, and it's like, it's been stripped of its heartful meaning.

Rose Aslan (31:51.983)

Right? Yeah.

Rose Aslan (31:58.907)

Unfortunately, and this is why I have this podcast and I want to share stories of women like yourselves who have gone beyond the gamification, right? Because I was introduced to gamification. It was never appealing to me, but it still gets to you when you're around enough people who remind you of that process, right? And it's something, maybe it works when you're a child, you get the gold star, you feel good about yourself, you keep doing it. As an adult, as adult, we need other things that are much more meaningful.

Dr Rola Hallam (32:15.155)

you

Dr Rola Hallam (32:18.803)

Hmm

Rose Aslan (32:25.775)

to really deeply embody that as you said and not just expect rewards. So yeah, this is really important.

Dr Rola Hallam (32:33.235)

And I think this is where, to your point, which I love, this is where I feel it's been so foundational and so game-changing to have a practice that is centered around the asmat, the names of Allah. Because I feel like you, even though, astaghfirullah, I'm not gonna claim to know Allah at all, right? I only know what I've been allowed to know, what any of us is allowed to know, you know, by His grace, but.

When you know that he is Al-Adl and Al-Hakam and Al-Hakeen, the just, right? The wise one, the discerning wisdom, the healing wisdom. When you know that he is the holder of all of these things, what other people, what other humans say has so much less of an impact.

Rose Aslan (33:7.023)

the dress.

Dr Rola Hallam (33:24.903)

because you're really looking for the judgment of the one judge.

And so even though I know, for example, I do get judged because I'm not veiled, right? May Allah guide me if that's what's in my highest interest and if that's what's on my path. of course, I know that I get judged by so many people who don't judge what's in my heart, who don't know what's in my heart, who cannot know what's in my heart unless they speak to me, but they judge me on my appearance, right? And that's when I think we just have to discipline ourselves to go back to whose judgment do you truly care about anyway?

Dr Rola Hallam (34:2.791)

Right?

Rose Aslan (34:4.411)

Yeah, I mean the goal is to only care about one one judgment that of the divine otherwise. It's all irrelevant.

Dr Rola Hallam (34:10.407)

Yeah, of the Rahman al Raheem, you know, who's actually gonna judge us through these loving eyes of Al-Wadood al-Ra'oof, he's that loving, caring, compassionate presence, which is not how we are looked at most of the time, sadly by other humans and Muslims included.

Rose Aslan (34:22.575)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (34:29.147)

Yeah, it's very unfortunate what you're talking about, this judgment of self-censoring, of making ourselves small, because we're so scared of what other people will think about, especially for Muslims, what other Muslims will think that we're quote unquote bad Muslims if we're not conforming to the correct, the correct way of being Muslim. Of course, we know there's not one correct way, but a lot of people assume there is, right? And then even the way they talk about God judging us, they talk about God judging us through harsh, through a harsh lens, like the punisher, the punitive God.

this ancient biblical God really more than this loving divine Quranic God that you know both you and I are speaking about. It's hard. It's hard to be Muslim in the 21st century and to stay in it despite all the people. Like I often say that I'm Muslim despite Muslims, right? I don't know how you feel about that, but that's how I feel about being a Muslim. I'm Muslim because I'm God, but if it was for Muslims I would not be Muslim anymore.

Dr Rola Hallam (35:17.565)

You

Dr Rola Hallam (35:27.471)

You know what, the first time I felt differently about that was when I met you and the other incredible women on the Muslim Writers Retreat. Like that for me was my first ever experience of feeling the Sisterhood.

Rose Aslan (35:39.706)

Yes.

Dr Rola Hallam (35:42.129)

I had heard about it, I had read about it, and I didn't know that it was a thing, know, truly. So thank you for being part of the Sisterhood and for showing me that it really does exist. That for me really reignited my faith in Muslim women, you know, that actually it is possible to be in...

Rose Aslan (35:43.642)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (35:55.917)

Yes.

Rose Aslan (36:2.649)

Yeah, yes.

Dr Rola Hallam (36:10.393)

a diverse, otherwise diverse group of women, right, in terms of ages, experiences, nationalities, races, religion, not religion, obviously we were all Muslims, but still not feel, like I, but feel unjudged with everyone, which, and of us showing up as we are. But so that for me really ignited that faith back in Muslim women, so thank you.

Rose Aslan (36:28.751)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (36:33.775)

Yeah, thank you. And it's lovely to be a part of that. For me, I found my healing among women, Muslim, non-Muslim. It's where we can be safe and not judged. When we find the right women who understand us, we're on that same page. And I've found women like you around the world who just like we speak the same language no matter what our native tongue is. It's just the most powerful thing ever when you connect. We're speaking that soul language together.

Dr Rola Hallam (36:54.002)

then

Dr Rola Hallam (36:59.215)

Absolutely. And you know, I run and guide this group of remarkable women called the Wise Warriors. You should come and join us. You are totally a wise warrior. And we are of all sorts of varying spiritual beliefs, you know, but I run this like monthly session called Calm Pray Dance. And it's just so beautiful to see a group of women from all sorts of faiths, spiritual beliefs.

that can come together and still be unified in a spiritual practice.

Rose Aslan (37:35.503)

Definitely.

Dr Rola Hallam (37:37.287)

Right? That I don't have to dogmatically tell you it's this and you don't have to dogmatically tell me it's this, yet we can all be joined in our own worship of the one true source. And I love that. And I feel like that is really the heart of Islam and of spirituality. is to be inclusive, not dividing and not exclusive.

Rose Aslan (37:51.951)

Definitely.

Rose Aslan (38:0.923)

Mm-hmm.

Rose Aslan (38:5.284)

I would love to see a lot more of that. And this brings me to the next question I have, which is about healing. You we've talked about your spiritual path, and then I know you've been on a healing journey even before probably you entered into this realm of spirituality. And I'd love to know more about which healing modalities you found to be soul nourishing on your journey and how they worked for you.

Dr Rola Hallam (38:28.909)

Hmm, what a great question. So for me, I absolutely started my healing journey pretty much around the time of the spiritual awakening and I now tend to think that those two journeys really go hand in hand together for so many of us. And you know, what we often call burnout or breakdowns, whatever, is also like, for many of us, it's that dark night of the soul, right?

Rose Aslan (38:47.823)

Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (38:58.131)

deep existential questioning. And so I've really come to realize from myself, as well as from others and my work with clients that sometimes our traumas fail us from that divinity. And I think it's why those journeys often go hand in hand together. It's almost like as you connect with your pain, you start to kind of unveil and unveil the wounds, then you start to kind of really connect to...

to spirit. I tried so many things.

Dr Rola Hallam (39:35.833)

Lots of things that didn't work for me. Now that doesn't mean that they don't work, but they didn't work for me. I've come to really think that, you know, there are obviously multiple modalities and I don't think that there is, you know, now when I work with people for healing their traumas, I'm not prescriptive in the sense I'm not like, okay, on day one to seven, we're going to do this and then seven to 14, right? Like it's really about who are you and what's your journey and where are you at and what might work for you.

So the things that really worked for me. Oh, okay. So what didn't really work for me, let's see, like hypnotherapy and hypnosis and those sorts of techniques, they didn't do anything for me. I had a lot of physical therapy for chronic pain. I had...

Rose Aslan (40:5.731)

Yeah. So tell us which ones didn't work. First tell us which ones didn't work. I'm so curious. Why not?

Dr Rola Hallam (40:36.055)

I still have chronic hip pain, but I had back then back pain that had developed over three years and I tried so much physiotherapy, chiropractice, you name it. And Rose, it would be crying a river of grief that would finally get rid of my back pain.

Rose Aslan (40:59.075)

With physical therapy.

Dr Rola Hallam (40:59.801)

And this is the thing that I felt really angry almost at my Western medicine training, that we had really divided mind from body and we hadn't been taught about the physical impact of mental and emotional problems and this deep connection between them. So now as a medical doctor, I work a lot with people on like root cause healing, because I'm like,

A lot of what your chronic illness, your inflammatory disease, your autoimmune disease, your chronic pain, your fibromyalgia, your chronic fatigue syndrome, most of that we now know from research has got a connection to and is seated in your trauma, in your unresolved trauma that is now manifesting in a physical way. So SubhanAllah, none of those therapies work, but really connecting with my pain that I had held.

and was unwilling really to connect with for so long. It would take that connection and then I cried my back pain away. It was remarkable.

Rose Aslan (42:4.111)

So literally when you say connecting with your pain, just sitting, feeling it and crying it away. Tell us more about that.

Dr Rola Hallam (42:9.679)

So, yeah, so I would say that it was finally realizing that I needed to feel in order to hear.

So many of us either cope through action, that's what I did. That was my addiction, my busyness, my work. Like that was my go-to, right? That was how I denied my pain, denied my suffering and how I busied myself so that I wouldn't think about all the things that actually were deeply affecting me, but I wasn't willing to consciously feel them. And so it would really take that conscious decision of like,

Oh my God, I have experienced so much of weakness, so much. I there's so much of my own suffering that I haven't felt. There's so much of the suffering that I haven't felt. There is so much of the disappointment that I haven't allowed myself to feel. There's so much of the powerlessness, right? The profound helplessness that I wasn't willing to feel because it was unbearable.

Rose Aslan (43:17.872)

Yeah.

Dr Rola Hallam (43:20.859)

And so it was really just allowing myself to go into all of those hardest of places, hardest of emotions and connecting with that pain. And I wasn't doing it to get rid of my back pain. I didn't think it was going to get rid of my back pain. I was just doing it because I was like, oh my God, there's nothing else to do. Here I am in a world of pain. Let me just cry it out. But SubhanAllah, then I was like, oh.

Wait, my back pain is better. Oh my God, my back pain is gone. A year later, so hand line to my healing journey, even though I hadn't done anything specifically for it, but I had been doing all of this other stuff, if that makes sense.

Rose Aslan (44:4.425)

Did you have someone hold space for you or this was just you leaning into it?

Dr Rola Hallam (44:9.779)

I've always been my best client and my best patient and my best doctor. So I've definitely done quite a lot of it with myself, but I did have the help of a coach at one point. I've definitely had the help of a therapist for several months as well at the peak of dealing with some of the worst, when I had like really severe PTSD, like definitely called on a therapist. But Allah Azza wa Jal remained my number one go-to. And at the...

and the deepest moments of despair, I would just double down on my practice. So my usual self care was 20 minutes to 30 minutes. When I was at my absolute worst, and I had a cycle of that last year, two, three hours. Like just spending time in practice, I knew was gonna be more transformative, more healing than a million sessions with an actual therapist. I did it, but I kind of knew.

where my true source of healing was, if that makes sense.

Rose Aslan (45:10.093)

beautiful. So your biggest medicine, your most potent medicine is reciting the names of God and just really trying to embody those in your life.

Dr Rola Hallam (45:16.925)

Categorically, categorically, because here's the thing that happens.

As you recite one of the names, first of all, the sound vibration, subhanAllah, I mean, we know the potency of the sound and the healing sound and that there is something about reciting the Quran and the names that is healing, but it takes trying it and really doing it to realize. And suddenly an emotion would pop up or a memory, something would shift. It was like it physically touched something.

So there you would be one minute just reciting the name, the next minute you're either in flints of tears or you're thinking about something like something would happen.

And usually that would be to connect you with someone.

Dr Rola Hallam (46:4.352)

Trauma is our disconnection from ourselves because we don't want to feel our pain. It disconnects us from each other. It disconnects us from the planet, from trees, and of course it disconnects us from the divine. so through this process and I think through the vibration of subhanAllah, it's like it connects you to yourself and then something shifts. In my instance, it was often crying. I don't know if it was someone else's experience. I'd be interested to hear, but there would be some kind of emotional release.

And it would almost be like you had to descend to the bottom of your helplessness and powerlessness to then touch grace, connect to that which is most powerful. And it was like from that place you would be lifted. From that place you would either have a sakina, a peace like you've never felt.

or some kind of profound insight, or some kind of just the most incredible loving hug that would just welcome you and hold you and you would realize you're not in a dark vortex of nothingness, you're in an almighty compassionate room.

Dr Rola Hallam (47:21.021)

that's holding you, supporting you, loving you, always held you, actually loved you and supported you, but you didn't realize.

Dr Rola Hallam (47:31.751)

So it's not just that you recite, you actually, you for me it's the opposite of spiritual bypassing. It's you actually really are gonna get guided to feel physically, emotionally, mentally, and then heal at that most profound level.

Rose Aslan (47:51.631)

Yeah, I'm really feeling what you're saying, Rola, because I've gone through a lot of the Dark Knight to the soul in my own life and it really feels like you have to go to the deepest depth of the low. then, yeah, crying it out helps a lot. Releasing it through movement. And it feels so awful. It's so hard. It's like I'm so angry and frustrated and full of despair. And that's when...

I also feel like I've been picked up and elevated and it somehow gets better after that. It's amazing though how we have to go so low to go high. It is hard being human, isn't it? A beautiful, and so hard, like, can't just be like a straight, like, know, shot.

Dr Rola Hallam (48:33.947)

It is.

Dr Rola Hallam (48:39.483)

I know, I know, I was lamenting that just this morning when our car got a puncture and I was like, that's why, can we not have one day when it just feels like it's going smooth? And then you're like, yeah, and you realize it's.

Rose Aslan (48:44.485)

Good.

Okay.

Rose Aslan (48:52.195)

Right? Exactly. What I love about this modality that you're talking about of just reciting the name of God for a certain amount of time and then seeing what comes up and allowing yourself to sit with that. It's so simple. Anyone can do it, especially people who prefer Islamic approach to spirituality. So easy. I love it. You don't have to learn anything. You don't need a teacher. You can just...

choose a name. And that question, how do you choose a name? Because I have a way of choosing a name that I work with. How do you choose whatever name you're going to work with that day?

Dr Rola Hallam (49:27.515)

Mm-hmm, great question. So at the beginning, I literally took the book and I was like, I'm going to meditate for seven days in a row on the same name. Like I really was like committed to getting to understand and know and feel what that name was. So I went through a whole year of basically just going in them sequentially so that I get to understand them, learn them, know them, feel them. Then I started to connect and just ad-lib.

Rose Aslan (49:36.988)

Yes.

Dr Rola Hallam (49:56.721)

So I might sit down and be like, what, either what do I feel is missing in my life that I kind of feel like I need more of in this moment. So if I'm overwhelmed, I might reach for Al-Wase'a. If I'm feeling like I'm being very self-critical and very self-loathing or something like that, then I might reach for that Al-Wadood or Al-Ra'uw or Al-Rahman Al-Rahim. So I started.

Rose Aslan (50:16.155)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (50:26.429)

to, or if I want something particular, like I want more peace or more wisdom, you know, then I would reach for the name that I felt would, yeah, most likely give me that. But alhamdulillah, what has happened since then is that I will use that often, but very often I will suddenly, in the middle of my practice, be gifted and given another name.

So I might start with my mind thinking or my heart thinking, oh yeah, it's this one that I need. And suddenly be like, oh no, I need Al-Jabbar. And I would just shift and immediately notice, SubhanAllah, that's the name that I needed. So I think the more that you practice that, the more that you, and the more that you know the names, the more that you will start to really be guided by Al-Hadi, by Al-Mulham.

but also the more that you will develop that hikmah yourself and that inner knowing yourself.

Rose Aslan (51:28.507)

It's so beautiful and I just love the simplicity and I hope that people listening, they're looking for something simple but really effective in their lives, they might try it out. And it's also about learning. It sounds like to me that it's also a way to hone your intuition because what you're describing is that you're listening not just to your mind but to your heart and your heart is prescribing your medicine for you a perhaps as an inham, as a, how do we translate that, as inspiration from God.

All right,

Dr Rola Hallam (51:58.363)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that for me, what started off as, you know, seeking and then it was like trauma healing. Now I kind of basically use it for all bits of my life. Like especially my work. So before I used to really pride myself on my strategic and critical thinking. Um, now if I need to do anything with my business, the first thing I will do is go sit my, myself down and, and do a meditation.

and really ask Allah the questions that I need. So for me, it's really about if you want to live this kind of more God conscious life, it's not just about what practice you're doing five times a day or in the morning and then you've ticked it off and then, okay, done. Now on with my materialistic capitalist self-serving life. Like, no, like what, what, what?

How could you bring it into every strand of your life? And just like he's the greatest therapist, he's also the greatest advisor. Who needs an advisory board when you can just speak to Allah and be like, what do I need? Guide me as to what is the best thing that is gonna help me to serve best. So big fan of using it in all sorts of practical aspects of your life too.

Rose Aslan (53:22.403)

you hear an answer that? I speak to a lot of people and they're like, I'm praying, I'm praying, and I'm not getting what I need and I don't have clarity, I don't know, and they're asking. For example, my son's like, I'm praying for PS5, I'm not getting it. I'm like, I don't know if Allah is that specific and I'm not getting you one. I don't know where your PS5 is going to come from. Ten-year-old aside, also adult people who are, you know, speaking to God, asking, and it's not so straightforward, like how that works. I'd love to hear how you gain that

Dr Rola Hallam (53:40.359)

You

Dr Rola Hallam (53:44.851)

you

Rose Aslan (53:52.059)

clarity when you ask and how do you get that guidance?

Dr Rola Hallam (53:56.975)

What a great question.

Dr Rola Hallam (54:4.295)

I think when you absolutely know that a last plan is infinitely better than the plan for your health for yourself.

Rose Aslan (54:9.083)

you

Dr Rola Hallam (54:18.301)

then you can ask for what you want, but you will have to trust that you will get what you need to get. So the first thing for me is about non-attachment to that ask. You don't know that this is what's in your best interest. Whether it's the job, whether it's the marriage, whatever it is, that money, like, supply don't lie, you don't know. Like this might be what your nefs wants or what you...

Rose Aslan (54:26.523)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (54:44.199)

what you think is in your best interest, but it may not be what's in your best interest. So that first, like, really that trust that Allah has the best plan for you is really, really critical. So that kind of, non-attachment, that surrender of what that real ask is, is really important. The second, and I find that this is the hardest thing for...

myself as well as for my clients and that is D.

Dr Rola Hallam (55:22.577)

We in a noisy world.

Dr Rola Hallam (55:27.795)

And part of the reason that I now live in the middle of nowhere, Andalusia, Al-Andalus, is because it has so much less modern noise. My social media is off my phone. I have purposefully cultivated a more spacious and calm life because I want to deeply listen. I want to deeply listen to what's inside of me. I want to deeply listen to what's around of me. Ilham often comes as whispers.

It might come as ideas. It doesn't, you know, I'm not sitting there and suddenly there's like, Rula, you must do this. You know, I think like sometimes we kind of think it's like that, right? Like suddenly there's a stream and there's like a big, brimming voice and like, doom, like, you know, like, absolutely I've had the Ilham. I've had it when it's been like, I'm very clearly being spoken to. And then you like, you know. But a lot of the time it's when

suddenly something falls out of your heart and you're like, oh, that's my answer. I'm like, I'm not into this anymore. Or suddenly you're like, boom, I know I need to do this. You know? Sometimes it might be so how am I, he's gonna send you someone else. And suddenly the next thing you hear on the podcast or on the radio or your friend saying it and suddenly you're like, all these messages are coming to you and you're like, oh, maybe that is the direction.

Rose Aslan (56:38.373)

Yes.

Dr Rola Hallam (56:56.689)

to go in, you know, like these answers are coming to you, not in your practice, but in normal life, in other ways. So here's the thing, Allah is Al-Mujeeb. He absolutely will answer you, but are you listening? And are you listening to all the ways, not the way that you think it should be, not the way that you want it to be? Are you really listening to all the ways in which it can be?

Rose Aslan (57:31.899)

I hear you loud and clear. I don't know if my kid will agree because he just wants a PS5 and I know it's not good for him so it's not gonna happen but you must listen and know why it's not coming.

Dr Rola Hallam (57:46.705)

Okay, I'm going to tell you on this. So I had a similar situation with Naya, my four year old, right? She really wanted a cat and we're living in a rented house. And I kind of said, hey, you look, until we have our own house, like, it's going to be difficult to have a cat. And she said, well, let's ask Allah. And I thought, well, what a clever girl. She clearly got me here. you know, like how could I like, absolutely. So every day we started to pray to Allah for a cat.

I swear to God, three days later, this gorgeous cat comes walking into our house and she's calling me from the lounge. goes, mama, mama, Allah answered. Look, he sent us a cat.

Rose Aslan (58:23.495)

I love it.

Rose Aslan (58:31.939)

You keep it.

Dr Rola Hallam (58:34.355)

I really wanted to, I got totally vetoed by my husband. A decision I absolutely regret to this day. But it was just so gorgeous, like the whole thing was so gorgeous, her excitement and the way she was like, I'm not answered our prayer. And it was just so beautiful, you You know, joking aside, what I say to her now, I say, because now we're praying for our house, right? So that's our new prayer, nightly prayer.

And I just, and you know, when she said, well, when does Allah answer our prayers? And I said, well, you know what? We have to trust that Allah knows what's best. So we don't know what's gonna happen. We just can ask him for the things we want and then we will see, because he's gonna give us something better than what we ask.

Dr Rola Hallam (59:21.907)

She's only four, but I feel like we get to share to the best of our abilities. We get to support our children to cultivate that connection, to cultivate that, you know, and we can support them in making that tweak, you know, it could be the PS5 or something better.

Rose Aslan (59:43.567)

Mm-hmm.

Dr Rola Hallam (59:46.033)

You know, just that small shift sometimes, you know, and that sometimes when I'm asking, you know, like this or whatever is in my highest interest. It's just like a little acknowledgement, like that I truly don't know what's best for me. So like, here's an idea. But I'm going to defer to your Karam. I'm going to defer to your wisdom, to your...

Rose Aslan (59:54.138)

Mm.

Dr Rola Hallam (60:12.049)

generosity to your your your knowledge and inshallah be happy with whatever I receive.

Rose Aslan (60:20.795)

Yeah, beautiful. love that was just so soul nourishing really. And I think a lot of people listening are also going to benefit from hearing this and just it's like things we know, but we need a constant reminder. If we don't hear this enough, we forget and we are humans, you know, are forgetful. So we just need this constant reminder. So thank you for that reminder, Rola. It's really important. It's the essential nature of who we are.

So as we wrap up, want ask you one last question. Would you want to share some pros of wisdom with the listeners, like one deep lesson that served you well on this journey you've been on so far?

Dr Rola Hallam (61:9.320)

I feel that for me.

What absolutely catalyzed.

my spiritual awakening was committing to healing my traumas.

And so I want to invite all of us, whether you know you've got unresolved trauma, whether it was big trauma, big T trauma, little T trauma, whether you don't even call it a trauma, you don't need to call it anything, but your programming, your childhood, whatever it is, it doesn't matter what you label it, but do that work to really heal. Because not only is it going to mean that you're going to open up

to the wonder, to the beauty, to the majesty of all that life offers. We often think of healing trauma as like we talk about feeling the pain, right? Like it's all so miserable. Like who wants to be miserable, right? But I swear to you that in the same year where I really was struggling the most with my PTSD and with like reliving so much terror and horror.

Rose Aslan (62:10.927)

Yeah!

Dr Rola Hallam (62:25.063)

I also can tell you it was one of the happiest years of my life. It was time when I experienced the most awe, the most beauty, the most wonder, the most inspiration. So Subhanallah, inna ma'a al-asri yusra, like yes, if you decide to go in there and commit to kind of seeing what's in your nooks and crannies and go into that inner mystery, yes, you're going to see some of those cobwebs, but no.

going to see far more beauty, far more majesty, far more nude.

Dr Rola Hallam (63:2.099)

You're going to really just start to really know why you're here on earth and the meaning of life, you know, so don't think that it's all just, you know, no pain, no gain. It's not like that. It really is. We are magnificent beings. SubhanAllah, I believe we are that part of, you know, heaven on earth. We are absolutely magnificent. Don't be scared of that inner journey. Your inner landscape is beautiful.

There's a few potholes, a few mountains to climb, but the views are going to be epic. know, the views are really, really going to be epic. So do that climb, sister, do that climb and know that, you know, cultivating that self-compassion is your key, is your ticket, is that catalyst that's going to speed up that journey for you because that's the best sort of fertile soil in which...

Rose Aslan (63:36.091)

and close.

Dr Rola Hallam (64:0.399)

All of this gets to sit, whether it's your spiritual practice, whether it's your healing practice, whatever it is, if you're doing it with that energy of self love and self kindness and self compassion, it's going to accelerate that journey untold time.

Rose Aslan (64:21.051)

hear you 100 % I'm with you on that. Definitely the best way to go. I really appreciate you speaking today so authentically, so vulnerably in this life giving conversation. People want to find you because you are a coach and you offer your services. Where can they find you online?

Dr Rola Hallam (64:41.725)

So come and find me at my website, it's drwillahalem.com. Come connect with me, drop me an email. I offer complimentary sessions to anybody who would like to explore what it might sound like and feel like to work together. So I'd be honored to join any of your sisters and brothers. Can't assume who's listening. I do hope there's many brothers who are listening. Alhamdulillah, so.

So yeah, absolutely do connect with me and you know, I always say like, let's see if there's alignment. I absolutely know that Allah is gonna send the right person to the right person as it were. And so sometimes the conversation means that we feel that there is this absolute chemistry and alignment and I can support you and sometimes it's not me. And in that call, we figure that out. So drop me a line. Let's connect.

Rose Aslan (65:33.413)

Yeah. Thank you. And people can also find the links in the show notes. So thank you, Rola. It's been a pleasure.

Dr Rola Hallam (65:45.671)

Thank you so much.