All the Parts Within Us: A Conversation with Fatimah Finney

In this episode of Rahma with Rose, I’m joined by Fatimah Finney, a licensed therapist and trainer in Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy. Fatimah shares her unique journey as a Black Muslim woman navigating motherhood, spiritual growth, and a career in mental health. We dive into how she integrates IFS therapy with Islamic psychology to help clients confront and heal from past trauma. Fatimah explains how reconnecting with our "inner parts," embracing vulnerability, and practicing self-compassion can guide us through life’s biggest challenges. Her story is both inspiring and deeply personal—don’t miss this heartfelt conversation about resilience, faith, and healing.

Fatimah Finney is an innovative thinker and licensed mental health counselor, as well as a trainer at the Internal Family Systems Institute. Her work goes beyond traditional therapy, integrating IFS as a framework for deep self-exploration and healing. She’s also a consultant for intercultural competence, helping individuals and organizations enhance their commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion. Fatimah completed a graduate diploma in Islamic Psychology from Cambridge Muslim College, and she’s actively integrating these rich insights into her practice. Outside of her work, Fatimah is a mother and a writer, and her piece "In My Skin: An Autobiography" was featured in the anthology Nonwhite & Woman: 131 Microessays on Being in the World. Join us as we explore her unique approach to mental health, spirituality, and social justice.

Transcript

Fatimah (00:00.871)

you

Rose Aslan (00:01.952)

Assalamu alaikum Fatima, it's wonderful to have you today on Rahman with Rose.

Fatimah (00:07.793)

Walaikum Assalam. Thank you for having me Rose. I'm excited to speak with you.

Rose Aslan (00:11.138)

Yeah, I'm really excited to have you here because I'm always just enjoy watching what Muslim women in the healing world are doing and you your work really caught my attention. I don't think there's a lot of women especially doing what you're doing with your kind of intersectional identities and I really wanted to hear more of your story and I wanted other people to hear your story too. So thank you for coming on and perhaps you can tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background.

Fatimah (00:34.044)

Hmm.

Rose Aslan (00:40.787)

and in a nutshell.

Fatimah (00:42.929)

Yeah, thank you for the nutshell part, because introductions, as many as I've done, there's always this part of me of just like, what do I say? I could say so much. So I'm a United States citizen. am here on the East Coast in New Jersey. a big part of my story right now is that I feel like over the last two years, maybe even the last seven, I've been in a lot of spiritual shifts, shakeups, transformation.

And I would like to lead with that because I feel like that is often not led with and talked about, but it profoundly shapes how I do all of the forward facing things that people tend to know. So I'm a licensed therapist here in the States. I'm also a trainer and a therapy model called internal family systems therapy, which is really about

Rose Aslan (01:18.328)

Mm

Rose Aslan (01:22.147)

Mm

Fatimah (01:35.861)

internal attachment and also has a spirituality component which kind of drew me in. And I also do consulting as well. So a lot of people work where I'm sitting with people in many ways holding a mirror to them, witnessing and being with what arises for them. And as much as I have helped people, the very work of helping others have, you know, shined a light on my own work and the own work that I need to do.

Rose Aslan (01:46.636)

Mm

Fatimah (02:05.577)

and I am noticing more and

Probably because in the last four years, I also became a mom. Just how precious life is, how fleeting it is, but how much joy gets, and the potential for joy gets covered over by things like working and the have to's and the should's and the supposed to's. And so I'm trying to untangle.

Rose Aslan (02:16.835)

Mm

Fatimah (02:41.245)

how a lot of that conditioning has gotten into me in ways that I just thought was my personality or ways that I just thought this is what you're supposed to do. I'm, I feel like I'm coming back home.

Rose Aslan (02:54.744)

Thank you. that's really beautiful for you to share, especially as a therapist, because therapists are often, it's hard, I think, for therapists to be vulnerable at times because you're the healer, you're the practitioner supporting people who are going through challenges. I really appreciate you opening up and talking about the fact that you're in transition, that you're going through a spiritual, personal transformation as we speak. And that's really powerful to model that, right, for others who are listening here to know that.

just because you've become a healer practitioner doesn't mean it stopped, right? It's an in -progress journey and it actually helps you along this path. So I appreciate you sharing that and uncovering the joy and missed all the grind and missed all the responsibilities. How do you do that? I mean, briefly.

Fatimah (03:40.253)

It's a process and some days are better than others, some moments are better than others. And I find that I'm more open to giving myself grace and allowing for what is to be what is. And so I spoke with you a little while before that. I just graduated.

with a graduate diploma in Islamic psychology. And I feel like just in this last year of going through that program had a lot to do with this feeling of returning home. most of my life I had an idea of how things should look or should be or what should be happening. And this last year, what kept constantly being repeated in many ways is like, how do you be with what is as it is?

So rather than judging it, evaluating it, measuring does this fit with my preconceived idea, it's how do you be with it is knowing that it was written for you in this very way that it's happening. And that is what I've been trying to lean into, the patterns of behavior that I'm like, why am I still struggling with this? the things that I accomplish that I'm really excited about is how do I hold

that all of it, all of it was, you know, especially wrapped for me in a way, right? Like this life that I'm leading, the experiences that I have were tailor -made for me. And kind of as I go in the flow of that, there's kind of less resistance, right? But then also how do I get curious about the resistance of like, what inside is not liking this and why? What beliefs am I holding onto about this situation? And what I mind to begin with?

Rose Aslan (05:06.231)

Hmm.

Fatimah (05:34.151)

that someone else kind of give this to me and that kind of shaped certain things. So it's been bringing a lot of curiosity about who is Fatima? How did I get this way? And what do want to be more aware of now that I am asking these questions versus moving from a place of this is just what you got to do. This is, you know, out here, this is what everyone's doing. So let me jump in and do that versus in here. What is, what is being asked of me? What am I being called to? So really.

Try to sit with like, that's it, try to sit. Try to sit and bow, try to sit and just be still and like notice what is it that I'm really feeling. Am I aware of me as I'm living life really? And I think the approach, the IFS approach, which is really about the therapist and that there's kind of like a saying of like, this is an inside out model.

Rose Aslan (06:20.526)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Fatimah (06:34.951)

It's not something you go do at your client. need to kind of get this first because if you're not aware of your own stuff, your stuff has got to impact what you're doing with the client. And so I think those two things have really given me the how, how do I sit with myself from a place of compassion, from a place of grace and from a place that I'm not all knowing there is something bigger than me that does know and how do I trust that without it being tangible, without it being material.

Rose Aslan (06:35.022)

Mm

Rose Aslan (06:59.299)

Mm

Rose Aslan (07:03.852)

Mm

Fatimah (07:04.785)

which always felt for me a lot like faith. And I use those to...

Fatimah (07:12.871)

frameworks really at this point in my life for how to do that. And they both kind of come with how do you be with what is.

Rose Aslan (07:21.006)

Thank you so much wisdom in that and just how to be with what is or how have you put it. And I think that this world is so busy and we're so distracted with especially screens nowadays. I mean, that's the main distraction I think of modern humans. And we use all these distractions to not be here at this moment because it's not always comfortable. mean, especially when we're having emotional challenges or any kind of challenges in our life, we want to escape.

Fatimah (07:34.685)

huge.

Fatimah (07:41.041)

Mm -hmm.

Rose Aslan (07:49.974)

That's why you have all these TV, movie, Netflix's that let you binge watch without even trying because I could go to the next show without you pressing a button. They're designed to keep us hooked. And what you're suggesting is the very opposite of just being with it. And I think the hardest thing for a lot of people is being with it even when it sucks. It's like, no, I could be with myself when I'm happy, when I'm in a good mood, but you mean I have to be with myself when I'm down?

Fatimah (08:11.952)

Hmm

Fatimah (08:19.591)

Yeah. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (08:19.928)

Yeah, yeah, I look forward to getting into that more, you know, what you do. But first, I want to ask you, can you remember when you first started getting interested in spirituality?

Fatimah (08:33.061)

Yeah, so I really like this question because in some ways I'm like, whoa, right? Like I grew up Muslim, right? And so a lot of things that are faith practices for me, just felt like this is just what I do, like this is the people around me are doing. And so it kind of felt like Islam was cultural in a way.

Rose Aslan (08:39.384)

Yeah.

Mm

Rose Aslan (08:54.36)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Fatimah (08:56.913)

But what I thought about, there was always these moments, right? Because I thought the idea of like prayer and do I was like fascinating. Like as a young kid, it felt like it was like a superpower. You could just like ask for the thing. And they say it'll happen. I mean, I had plenty of prayers that were not answered. Thankfully looking back, right? Like if I get upset at my parents, I'm like, want to send me to another family or send me, you know, some other place. But I...

Rose Aslan (09:13.25)

Hmm.

Fatimah (09:24.999)

do remember specifically a moment where I felt like Islam is mine. Like if I even said to myself, like, if my family tomorrow decides they don't want to do this, like there's something in here that's for me and mine. And it was in my senior year of high school. I went to an all girls private boarding school in Connecticut here for high school. And so that experience, was pro

for maybe like the first three years, was the only Muslim on campus. And so I did a lot of my fasting during the month of Ramadan on my own, like reading the Quran and everything. It was something that I kept up with. And I remember like I would find these little places on campus that, cause I had this thing of like, it's just my thing to do. And these little corners I would find. And I remember being in my dorm on the attic landing.

Rose Aslan (09:55.342)

Mmm.

Fatimah (10:20.589)

And I was reading the Quran, which is something that I read every year, probably since I was like five, because we went to Muslim schools and like it was a part of that during Ramadan. But that year it was like the relevance to my life. Like, I don't know if it was the translation I was reading, but that year I was like, God is talking to me. Like there's things that I can like relate to in the way that I'm getting this. And I remember sitting there, I was like, there was like this light that came on like.

Rose Aslan (10:27.256)

Hmm.

Fatimah (10:48.465)

I was already kind of plugged into it, but I remember that day very specifically where it was just like, like something like the charge finally came through of like, it's not just cultural, it's not just something I'm doing with my limbs, but it like, I felt like my heart opened that year. So yeah, I say senior year of high school.

Rose Aslan (11:07.496)

What a beautiful story. And what did you experience differently that Ramadan?

Fatimah (11:13.833)

I think because I was, it was senior year, I had already gone to spend about four years doing this thing. But I know, I think probably the previous year, maybe that same year, I can't remember. I was interviewed for article about like, I think it was called like one in hundreds. And it was like about being an only Muslim on campus and the campus newspapers. I think those things had already started to have me thinking about.

who am I in a way that, in a public way, that I often kept very private, right? So was like when I had prayer, like I had found my own places to do it, when I would, you know, go stick food early in the morning from the dining hall, like that was just like something between me and God because everyone else was sleeping. And so I think it was in those last two years that that started to be brought out. People had a curiosity about it. And so,

Rose Aslan (11:49.208)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Fatimah (12:12.149)

I think it kind of felt like, yeah, this is something that is not just something beautiful for me, but it's something that other people should know about. It doesn't have to be this private thing anymore.

Rose Aslan (12:20.366)

Mm

Rose Aslan (12:23.534)

Wow, so you were almost like an ambassador for Muslims, it seems. Would you say at this boarding school in Connecticut?

Fatimah (12:33.135)

Yeah, Ambassador, the high school experience was really interesting. I think there was a lot going on. But I do know that the years after, there were more Muslim students. And I do remember that by the time that I left, when they had a cultural event of all different cultures, I do remember seeing some of the Muslim students do the Fatiha and do the opening prayer there. So was like, I see the arc.

Rose Aslan (12:43.331)

Mm.

Fatimah (13:00.997)

of that and looking back, perhaps, like having people talk about that could have influenced it. But it wasn't something on my radar. I do think being a black student, that identity was more salient because it was a predominantly white institution. And so I think my experience was just more of like being a black girl from inner city, New Jersey in this space was definitely something that was more salient than being Muslim. I think I was more protective of being Muslim. I was like.

Rose Aslan (13:26.188)

can imagine.

Fatimah (13:29.617)

Y 'all aren't touching this.

Rose Aslan (13:30.882)

Yeah, thank you for sharing. That's this really interesting place to have discovered your spirituality and come closer to the creator in that kind of environment. It's unexpected, you could say, but really, really powerful to hear. So then what was it like afterwards? How did it feel to have ownership of your spirituality?

Fatimah (13:51.055)

Yeah, so after I went to college and I knew that I wanted to go to a school that had a Muslim Student Association. Like that was like one of my non -negotiables. And so the school that I ended up going to was Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut and had a Muslim chaplain. And this is brother Soheb Sultan. May Allah be pleased with him. He passed away a couple of years ago. And

Rose Aslan (14:16.318)

Fatimah (14:21.603)

love, love, like it was, it was just like a refuge for me at that, at MSA. think it was like an anchor in a way because college was what it was. But I think I went to boarding school. I already had a sense of being away, so I wasn't necessarily navigating a lot of the homesickness that people were or, but I think the MSA was a refuge at times. And I think that so Habes,

Rose Aslan (14:35.918)

Mm

Fatimah (14:52.229)

approach was very like how it was the first time it was it was like going from the rules and this is what you do versus how do you be. I feel like I got that of like just how to be with and relationship with like a law and the importance of like vicar and more so than like how is your scarf or all of these things that people tend to nitpick on it was just like how is your heart and I think that college was

watching him and his wife, Arshi, they were kind of like, and they were relatively young compared to where I was. So it was like, here's a young couple, they're Muslim, and they get it. And they're not judgmental. And so that was really encouraging for me, I think, in college, interacting with more Muslims from across the globe, different backgrounds. I really kind of got into like,

there's like a variety of different ways that people do things. And in a way we all come with like, well, because I did it this way, this is actually how it should be done. And so it was an interesting place to interrogate like, what is a slam versus what is culture and how to just kind of be with all of that. I felt like a slam kind of opened up in 3D versus, you know,

Rose Aslan (16:06.797)

Mm

Fatimah (16:16.411)

the foundation that I got being in a African American Muslim community, going to a predominantly white high school and kind of being on my own, integrating that, and then going into a college space with so many different ways that people were being Muslim.

Rose Aslan (16:27.896)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (16:35.083)

I've heard so much about Imam Soheib. I've never met him personally, but I've known so many people who've spoken so highly of him. I believe they published a book of his sermons perhaps recently. But so beautiful to hear that the impact that he had on you and his wife had on you because it wasn't rule -based, but it was heart -based. This is just so important and Muslims, I think unfortunately many Muslims are exposed to really the fiqh.

Fatimah (16:41.692)

Mm.

No.

Rose Aslan (17:01.958)

rule -based Islam and this is what you should do, this is what you shouldn't do. And if you do this, this will happen. If you don't do this, this will happen, right? The consequential way of being Muslim. And I love to hear that because you are surrounded and absorb this heart -based way of being Muslim, that it really set you on this path of knowing yourself better, of spirituality. I wish everyone could have a Muslim chaplain, you know? Like it's, they're so uncommon, unfortunately, right? But it sounds so important.

Fatimah (17:26.971)

Yeah. And they were really uncommon back then. He started out as the chaplain for two, for us and Wesleyan. And then I think like three years in, he went to Princeton and was there until he passed. But then we got another Muslim chaplain, Sister Marwa Ali. And her, think, so yeah, like split between my years in college. I had the two chaplains. I think having Marwa,

Rose Aslan (17:34.668)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (17:53.528)

Mm.

Fatimah (17:56.929)

helped me see women in leadership. So there was kind of this opening of like, yeah, like women can do this and how important it is in order to, for me, in order to see that example in terms of even navigating college politics and policies around what students get to do and what they don't get to do. But then also, again, young people.

Rose Aslan (18:19.064)

Yeah.

Fatimah (18:26.21)

because they were probably like in later 20s, built family as well. So like seeing her get married and like have children and just having those examples while working in spaces that where your role is still committed to being Muslim, right? Again, it's still being public about your Islam, which was something I started to do in high school. Those examples, I think were really meaningful to me and just how they treated people.

Rose Aslan (18:42.392)

Mm

Fatimah (18:56.059)

Like it's one thing to have people who lead and hear all the things they say, but like your behavior in terms of like how they invited us into our homes or we would have events there versus like in the Muslim prayer room that they had, even though we utilized that space once we got it. I was like, that's so intimate for me. Coming from a place where it would just be like, go do it in a public place. But like I was in their home a lot. And I'm just like, this is so.

Rose Aslan (19:10.412)

Mm

Fatimah (19:24.452)

It just reminded me of this on the.

Rose Aslan (19:26.86)

Yeah, I love hearing that. You know, when I lived in the US, I also was friends with some chaplains and it's such a unique position. It doesn't really exist in most other countries, even other Western countries, because even I was looking in the UK, think primarily the chaplains are male because they have to be confirmed by the community. Whereas in the US, anyone who wants to be a chaplain can be if they're confirmed by the university they attend and get their degree from. So it's a very unique experience. I think that now that we have

Fatimah (19:46.268)

Mm.

Fatimah (19:51.953)

sitting.

Rose Aslan (19:56.544)

especially Muslim women chaplains. There's more and more. I met some amazing ones from around the country and they can be in positions of leadership that we've never experienced or witnessed. So it's really cool. Like you're like one of the first generation who's witnessed that. When I was in college, we didn't have many chaplains and we definitely didn't have women, Muslim women chaplains, you know. So it's not that long ago even, I'm not that old. But it's really cool to hear what it was like in your formative years to experience chaplaincy.

Fatimah (20:12.431)

Mm

Fatimah (20:17.84)

you

Rose Aslan (20:26.22)

and how powerful it be because they're training so different than regular imams, right, who might be from a different country and grew up in a different country and they have a lot of textual knowledge. But we know that chaplains have this deep pastoral training, which is the difference, I think, in why they're so good off, not everyone, but most of them are so good at connecting with the people they work with in ways that's different than imam. Yeah.

Fatimah (20:50.737)

Yeah. And I think that age is so, as much as being that age, you feel like you know everything. It's such a vulnerable age and a vulnerable time as there's a lot of pressure to know and not a lot of space to be vulnerable amid that you don't and that you need guidance and that you need help. And yeah, I just think about how even just the thought of that, like I remember being so like, I have to.

Rose Aslan (20:58.154)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (21:02.712)

Mm

Yeah.

Fatimah (21:17.981)

a Muslim chaplain, even though it was kind of this rare thing. But I think it was really useful in kind of planting a lot of seeds that I feel like are now sprouting over the last five to 10 years of my life. And like, I feel like I have to give that credit in trying to draw and preparing for this. Like, where were some of the starts of some of this? And it was definitely in those years.

Rose Aslan (21:19.824)

Mm. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (21:28.547)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (21:31.831)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (21:35.532)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (21:44.564)

Beautiful. Could you take us along that garden path a little and tell us about the things that were planted and have sprouted?

Fatimah (21:52.261)

Yeah, I think the importance of your spirituality isn't this compartmentalized box for certain days or certain times or certain months of the year. I'm Muslim all the time and my faith isn't... It was a calling of if you're just thinking about what you do with your limbs or what you put on your body, that you're kind of missing it, right? Like you're missing what...

Fatimah (22:22.649)

we're called to do and why Islam was sent to the world is to connect us back to our hearts, which is connect us back to God and that being on a college campus where there's so much that's there, It's having the chaplains where like, and here's also something you can do at your Friday night, right? Like you have this choice, like the same choices of like, hey, we're gonna have the spiritual night or devotion randomly in the year. It's not tied to Ramadan, but it's just like,

What do we want to do here on a Friday night? The same choice that we're allowing you here, you can have that in your adult life, right? It's about the choices that you make. I think leaving college.

Fatimah (23:05.563)

And going into graduate school, which also I think shaped me because I went to a Boston college, which is a Jesuit university, and just seeing how that institution talks a lot about student formation from the Jesuit tradition. So from undergrad, they had retreats as a part of just their culture. Kids could sign up for retreats that they would go on.

go on and learning about these tenets of St. Ignatius about like being men and women for others, right? Service and all these different things. was helpful in those two years to think about how do I hear and know my spirituality and how do I hear the echoes of it in different traditions as well. And so it helped. It was a calling for like, yes, like I am definitely a Muslim and part of the Muslim community and

How do I also, in connecting to my heart, connect to other hearts where this message reverberates, perhaps in different channels in that way? So that, think, was a useful experience coming from college and then going into graduate school and learning about that tradition, not in text. I was studying counseling psychology, but being on the campus and having a campus job and working with the students, I could hear what it was that they were doing and hear about

how the institution really focused on the whole student. And I was like, yes, like this, would love to have like, you know, most of the university that talks about, you know, full formation rather than like academics. And like, if you want to drop into this MSA, like where it's just a part of, a part of everything versus compartmentalizing it. I've going into therapy after that, I really started to think about, well, what is, you know, dysfunction, but what is healing then?

Rose Aslan (24:45.806)

Mm

Fatimah (25:00.817)

Right? What makes people get better? And so I knew from my faith where it was like, remembrance of God, right? There's that quote of like, or the verse in the remembrance of Allah, do hearts find peace? And so was like, there has to be something that ties to that. But of course, learned about different modalities and this is how you find healing, focusing on the symptoms. There was always something that felt like this, this isn't all of it.

the fact that people keep coming back, like there's still something missing. And I became really curious about how do people get well that goes beyond the body, that touches into something that's bigger because I know the belief in God, if we talk about the most historical long lasting thing, I'm like, that's probably the oldest concept amongst human beings. So like, how do people get well?

people talked about modernity and like what we're dealing with is new and I'm also like, well, humans are cyclic and maybe there wasn't iPhones at a certain time, but some of the things we're dealing with, there has to be something, right? And so when I found IFS, it was the first thing that talked about in a therapy model, like, yes, IFS, Internal Family System Therapy, it was my exposure to a model that said,

Rose Aslan (26:18.518)

in the internal family systems for people who don't know it yet.

Fatimah (26:27.175)

there's something bigot in yourself and that's the healing resource. And I was like, this sounds like the fitra. Like, what is this? Like I've only heard about.

Rose Aslan (26:35.741)

And fitzra we call like the innate way of being and for an Islamic terminology, right?

Fatimah (26:39.737)

Exactly, exactly. And so that kind of was like, OK, let me learn more about this model. And I've been doing that for over a decade now since I found out about it. And then when I started hearing about Islamic psychology, I was like, well, hold on. How could I just? Like, where did this come from? Like, I would have studied this at the time. But I think it's

Rose Aslan (26:59.221)

you

Fatimah (27:07.131)

Also kind of like a Fatima, you trust and know that you get what you need to get at the time that you need to get it, right? Like if I knew about this in undergrad, I probably wouldn't have even been ready for it. And so it's like that wisdom of like, I've been wanting to know where's the healing that doesn't just come from us. Cause a lot of stuff is like, it's you, you're the one who cured yourself. And so when I heard about Islamic psychology, I like, I need to kind of, I sign me up. I need to know what this.

Rose Aslan (27:24.631)

Mm.

sorry.

Rose Aslan (27:34.872)

Can I ask you before we go to, I want to hear a lot about Psalm Psychology, but why did you choose to go into counseling psychology, the name, because you don't just, know, a lot of people, chose a major that was interesting and, I chose to say religion, for example, but it wasn't a healing profession, right? You chose a healing profession. I'm so curious because we're talking about healing and spirituality. Why did you choose to go into a healing profession?

Fatimah (27:56.923)

Well, I, so I double majored in neuroscience and psychology and I thought I was going to do it. Thought I was going to initially came in on a pre -med track. started to get into more research. So was doing, you know, cell cultures and, studies with mice on the brain and things like that. and it was interesting, but I was like, I can't be in a lab my whole life. It was just very clear to me that this was not going to be a good fit for a career. And so.

I was like, okay, I have this background and understanding the brain, understanding people in a way. What's something that I feel I won't have to do a complete pivot, but can kind of bring some of that to it. And so I took a psychology seminar where we talked a lot about therapy and my senior year again, something about senior years. I was just like, the concept of therapy was not something that I...

thought of. think culturally, like going to like tell people your business, it was just like, no, like I didn't know anybody who went to therapy outside of things that I saw in movies that were usually exaggerated and weird. But I got interested in that. And so I met with someone who was at just from a program that I did earlier, but a few years ahead of me. And she was in a counseling program. So I remember speaking with her about it.

Rose Aslan (28:59.661)

Mmm.

Fatimah (29:22.757)

And so was like, okay, I'm going to apply to some. I am going to apply to some and I'm going to apply for some jobs. And so I got into the one at Boston College and I was like, I'm going to go try and see. It's two years. I knew I wanted to, I knew, I knew I needed to go as far as my masters because I was like, I'm going to be done with school forever. Like I'm tired of school. And at least if I go to my masters, I don't have to go back and get it. So that was kind of like, let me see what this counseling thing is about.

Rose Aslan (29:39.662)

Mm

Fatimah (29:50.717)

It seems I can definitely use it even if I do want to go to research or if I want to do a PhD, like let me just get the masters and have that settle. So that's what drove me because I was clear that a part of me was forcing me like, you'd be doing research, you have to be a researcher. But I think when I gave myself permission of like, I don't have to be anything, I'm 22, right? Like, let me try something on. I went to get my master's in counseling psychology and it was a good fit. I was able to talk with people.

Rose Aslan (30:16.994)

Mm -hmm.

Fatimah (30:19.151)

versus being with cells and mice all the time. so, yeah.

Rose Aslan (30:25.336)

Beautiful. Yeah. And I'm so glad you did for many people, all the people you serve.

Fatimah (30:31.089)

Yeah, it's been a whirlwind. And again, going back to what I said of like how much work going through that helped me, right? Helped me see myself of like, I had no idea of the human condition of the amount of suffering. I remember struggling a lot because when you listen to people's stories, you hear the horrible things that people have done to people. And I wasn't prepared for that.

Rose Aslan (30:41.324)

No.

Rose Aslan (30:51.127)

Hmm.

Fatimah (31:01.723)

I had the theory in my head, but like the sitting with people. And I also did outreach therapy. I did, I went to people's homes so that transportation wouldn't be a barrier. So I was driving around Boston doing therapy with people, which now I'm so grateful for. Didn't care to be doing it while I was doing it in terms of just driving and traffic, but to see people in their environment and to just see that other layer of what

Rose Aslan (31:10.584)

you

Rose Aslan (31:26.018)

Mm.

Fatimah (31:30.565)

impacts their mental health, how they see themselves, how they see the world. Yeah, that was an education in and of itself, just the way that the therapy was done. And so I think that's been very valuable. And then just sitting with people on their couch on their own terms is different than them coming into my office and putting on who they might need to put on after going through all of that. So it was really rewarding in that way.

Rose Aslan (31:32.898)

Yeah.

Fatimah (31:59.609)

And I also kind of felt how limiting the mental health field was for people and how it wasn't helping people definitely at the rate that they need it. But it also was kind of looking at their symptoms out of context. And I was interested in something that was more holistic, like look at the person and their whole environment. At times I was like, this person doesn't need a therapist. They need housing, right? And like how those systems.

Yeah, give people band -aids when they definitely need surgery or just put these things in place or how individualism says, here's what's wrong with you. Go talk to somebody about what's wrong with you versus looking at how did they get here? How are people systemically under -resourced? And then when they have reactions that make sense, right? Their nervous system is unregulated because they're in a state of survival. We just go back to these individualistic ways of sit with this person and just talk about it.

Rose Aslan (32:32.142)

Mm.

Fatimah (32:57.851)

So that really, have said within six months, I was like, I need to start doing groups because I'm hearing all of these themes of the individuals I'm working with and how do we bring people into community? One, to know that they're not alone, but two, to begin to get curious about how do we all get here? What is not just us that's doing it, but what's greater and what's at play? So I'll pause it here because I can talk clearly.

Rose Aslan (33:04.247)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (33:18.093)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (33:23.626)

I mean, think other people also want to hear what is it like to be a therapist, Muslim, a black Muslim woman therapist in the United States. I mean, I think that experience is very unique, you know, and what you have to offer is a gift to those who get to listen. I would love to hear more about all your modalities, right? IFS is something that I've been really fascinated with and I've received that modality of therapy and.

Sometimes I recommend clients as a coach, and I recommended friends to try it because sometimes normal talk therapy doesn't seem to be very effective, but IFS seems to be more effective, and I'm really quite a believer in it. So I'd love to hear, you seem to definitely be a big proponent. Your online presence is like very IFS oriented, and now I'm sure that Islamic psychology is gonna be added to that, but tell me more, for someone who's never heard about IFS, internal family systems, who is looking for a therapeutic modality that might

Fatimah (34:00.827)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (34:19.434)

be more effective than traditional talk therapy? What is it, if you can sum it up, and how have you seen it to be effective for patients?

Fatimah (34:26.343)

Mm

Fatimah (34:30.267)

Yeah, so IFS is a psychospiritual modality. It maps our internal system in a way of understanding it, that we have these different parts of ourselves. And you probably have said around any decision, a part of me wants to do this and a part of me doesn't. And so IFS says that our system is multiplicitous. We're not ever just one thing and that that's normal versus pathological. Oftentimes, people think,

Rose Aslan (34:56.856)

Mm

Fatimah (34:58.727)

This is just me, have to be one way. But IFS says, there's a lot that's inside of there and going on. So when you come in saying that you have anxiety or you have depression or you want to stop this habit, we say, OK, there's parts of you that's doing this. How do we connect with the one inside that's doing this? And really lean into its wisdom. IFS says that a lot of

what is happening makes sense when you get to know it. So rather than trying to find ways to suppress it, avoid it, or mindset it out, there's a lot of stuff about like have the mindset and that's all it will take for you to have. When you can be with what's happening inside, we can understand what's under that, right? Anxiety might be the strategy, but what is it really trying to accomplish? And that there's these...

Rose Aslan (35:43.438)

Mm -hmm.

Fatimah (35:48.529)

Particular parts inside that are called exiles that are holding a lot of these burdens. The burdens of I'm not good enough, I'm unlovable, know, it really runs the gamut. And so we try to help, what are the ones that are stuck usually back in time holding onto this burden that was left in them by an experience of sexual abuse, trauma, and how do we liberate that? How do we unburden so that it creates more space to...

live your life from a place that is more compassionate, that is more clear. Because oftentimes we walk around reacting to 2024 from the perspective of 1995, right? And so we're trying to go back and help those ones get updated. I'm not in that situation anymore. I'm not even around those people anymore. But maybe something in 2024 is kicking up the sound of

X, Y, or Z back then. And so it's trying to bring harmony in the system. So things aren't frozen in the past, but grounded in the future. And that IFS talks about the self, the inner self, self -energy. That is the aspect that I say brings a spiritual component, because it's this aspect of goodness that is there, that is not created or destroyed or contingent upon external things. It's just something that was given to you. And that is what

is leading your system when a system is unburdened and yeah, on the other side. I would say that's what we're striving toward. There is no arrival. No one's just sitting there and just being that because we are still in the world. But it's striving toward a more self -led system versus parts that are, they have their agendas, but they oftentimes have only tunnel vision and don't see the full perspective of your life.

Rose Aslan (37:39.928)

Beautiful. And could you give us an example, like a specific thing you might do with a client? Because it sounds like it's a liberatory practice. But like, what is something specific you might do to help someone reconcile their parts and liberate the exiles, as you call them?

Fatimah (37:56.358)

One is getting in relationship with them. So Rose, if you were my client, I might say, you know, what are you noticing right now if you came in around trying to do a podcast? going to like a lot of anxiety about starting using this new system. So I would first start with what is it that you're noticing? We might call that the part. Then we would focus on it. Right? What is that part saying right now or how you're experiencing it? Because usually there's...

some way we're experiencing either somatically, I feel this tension in my chest, or it just keeps saying that I gotta get this right, everything has to work. And so once we focus on it, then ask how you feel toward it, because it's about relationship, right? As you're noticing this anxious part, can you be with it? Or are there other parts that's coming in saying like,

You shouldn't be talking about this. You're supposed to be professional, right? Because there could be other scripts around that. So it's really about how to see what are all the players around this anxiety and can you get space from it? Is that one that's criticizing the existence of the anxiety? Is it willing to give you some space so we can work on it? Because if we actually work on the anxiety, that one doesn't have to be so rattled by it anymore. And oftentimes people get a sense of relief of like,

I thought that I had to fight this thing. I thought that I had to stamp it out. I thought it had to be this internal battle versus there's more about internal witnessing that is way more powerful. We can actually sit and listen to what's going on. Even if we don't agree with the strategy, we can agree with the intent. this anxiety is actually trying to help you because it wants you to do a good job. wants your podcasts to do well. As you hear that, how do you feel towards it?

Well, that's nice. I want to do well too. Like I appreciate that it's trying to do that, right? That's a wonderful thing. But the tool that it's doing, that's making my body shake, the making my voice, like that's not really helping me. And so we slow things down a lot in IFS. Like how can we actually feel into what's coming up? Cause there's wisdom there. It would not be coming up now or for the last 30 years in this way, if it wasn't important. And so we work with that and we try to get permission.

Fatimah (40:10.845)

Cause usually there's a lot at stake. have to be, what do I hear a lot? I have to be excellent. I cannot make mistakes. If I'm going to put something on my name out, like there's no room for messing up. We interrogate some of those things and offer hope of a different way. If you can still do a podcast without the beliefs of I'm not good if people don't validate me. I'm not going to.

ever be safe or have enough money if I'm not able to put out things that people like. Like, we uproot a lot of those things that are driving a lot of the energy. And then we invite, have people invite in, instead of those beliefs, what would you rather have had that you didn't get a chance to have, right, in your circumstance? And sometimes people are like, I just like, a of my clients is like, I just want to invite in more chill. Like just, I feel like my life.

has been so high gear and high sneaks. Like I wanna just like, what is it like just to chill? Just to like feel that viscerally. And so we have these rituals in a way of releasing, right? So that burden of I'm not good enough unless I produce. What do you wanna do with that? Okay, I want to, how do you wanna let that go? Cause it is an option to let it go. And people have their own ways that they come up with. Sometimes you offer people letting it go through the elements.

And what you know is that there's a lot of imagination. There's a lot of internal work. And what I like about that is that it isn't something that's like, it has to look a certain way. So your process, Rose, has to look this way, has to look like all clients in that way. And I think there is something liberatory about that because it taps into our uniqueness. And imagination, at least definitely in a US context, I think

the path of being an adult really robs us of imagination. Like people lose that as children. And so that being a part of the healing path of like, what is it that you want to imagine? And then we say, what would the part that was using anxiety and anxious ways of being as a strategy to get you to do everything excellent, for example, we then ask that part, okay, now that this one.

Rose Aslan (42:04.722)

True. Very true.

Fatimah (42:28.249)

isn't holding that belief, or now this one that you are protecting is freed up a bit, what would you rather be doing? Your situation, your life, your upbringing said you have to do it this way, but there's a choice here. What would you rather be doing? And sometimes those parts are like, I would so rather use my energy to making sure that vacations are planned. I've had people say that, like, I want to be responsible for the self care that never gets done, or I just want to relax and actually not do anything.

I didn't even know not having a job in here and working was a possibility. So I want to tap out. Great, because self -energy can lead. You're not the only one. So that is the arc. I just took you through the arc of the IFS model. But it really is like slowing down with what's going on and how to have the courage to say the truth, your truth, in a way that you're

Rose Aslan (43:10.22)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (43:20.322)

My body's been relaxing as you've been describing it. I'm just like, ooh, that feels so juicy. like, I really want everyone listening is like, hmm, maybe I should try that, you know? It sounds so delicious the way you describe it and your approach. Like, I'm sure you're an excellent therapist. It really also resonates with me as a Muslim. What I'm hearing is, is I'm hearing this discussion without using the term is like the idea of Islam or submission. Really, when you submit to the divine,

Fatimah (43:25.203)

yes.

Fatimah (43:29.743)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (43:49.442)

then you don't have to have these internal struggles. What do you think as a Muslim? How do you see those lining up?

Fatimah (43:56.893)

So many overlaps with IFSNIP and I think Islamic psychology is kind of like, this is even in the IFS where I felt these gaps for things that I was still yearning for. It kind of says clearly, right? The healer is Allah. So even as a therapist,

I am, it even, even, you know, tax me with, are you making sure that you are a vessel to be a conduit? Because the work is coming through you. It is, it doesn't originate with me. And that has been very freeing of just like, the answer is here. It's between us as, as therapists and clients. but my work is to remain, you know, a clear enough vessel for something that is beyond me to come through. And I'm holding that, that,

My client's access to that isn't contingent on me either, right? So I'm letting them know that when we stop meeting is not because of you coming here and getting in this way, even though this moment is still a part of what was written for us. It's like, this is available and this is a process of coming home. And so I find IFF a great tool of helping people get connected with what's going on inside and

Rose Aslan (44:56.184)

Yeah, that's so important.

Rose Aslan (45:16.654)

Mm

Fatimah (45:19.513)

from Islamic psychology standpoint, it's like holding the context of where he all healing comes from. So we might bring in, okay, as a part of like, how do you want to release this? So what do you want to call in? You might be bringing in some of the names of Allah that I work with people like, you know, like, especially folks who are into social justice, like what power and control it's like, how do you sit and just think it on who has the most power, who is the most powerful, right?

Rose Aslan (45:46.946)

Mm

Fatimah (45:49.073)

When you want power, you want things to change, if you keep it on the horizontal to people, it would only kind of reverberate and facture through us. But when we are talking about who is actually the all powerful, not our governments, not the billionaires, it just puts things into context that for me has been very relieving and very freeing and has allowed me to kind of ground in a way that

Rose Aslan (45:55.49)

Yes.

Rose Aslan (46:03.874)

Mm -hmm.

Fatimah (46:15.229)

when you're just thinking about people and what we do and who's doing what and who's terrible, it can feel you feeling depleted. But when it's like, even these things are in the order, in the framing and in the wisdom of God, it's like, so I just have to work on my trust, God, and not, it's not just about believing in God, but believe God, right? Like believe.

Rose Aslan (46:21.964)

Yes.

Rose Aslan (46:37.623)

Yeah.

Fatimah (46:39.107)

what is said. And I was like, that's a subtle distinction that I have to work on. Right? Say I believe in God, I'm Muslim, but do I actually believe God when he says that there are going to be things you don't understand and that wisdom is with him. There are going to be things that you dislike that's actually good for you. There's going to be things that you like that is actually bad. Like all of those things. It's like, okay. Yes. And when I'm working with clients too,

Rose Aslan (46:46.978)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (47:01.9)

Mm -hmm.

Fatimah (47:07.559)

who is the healer, who is the source of all love. So it's bringing in that aspect unapologetically because in the therapy field, spirituality, faith, it's coming back. It's like coming up, I would say, in the last decade where people are talking more about it. But for a long time, it was like, keep that out of here. We just focus on the symptoms, Kind of, I think the culture of the US, you don't talk about religion and politics, like it's just that avoidance. And so.

Rose Aslan (47:10.562)

you

Rose Aslan (47:15.501)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (47:26.434)

Mm

Fatimah (47:34.651)

I appreciate the modalities that I've been using that says, what's here is the work. People have faith, people have these things that they believe, that's a part of the work too, and how do you honor that to help them get what's available to them.

Rose Aslan (47:39.8)

Mm

Rose Aslan (47:50.082)

What you just shared is so important, Fatima. Especially right now, people are witnessing the genocide in Palestine and Gaza and so many other acts of injustice. And it's not really possible to just stay human and witness. So many people are just feeling, and myself included, helpless, depressed and allowing it to take over their lives because it almost feels like if they...

Fatimah (48:03.419)

Thank you.

Rose Aslan (48:19.008)

are feeling down, then somehow it's an act of solidarity with those who are suffering violent attacks on their lives, right? And it's really hard for myself and many others just to live in this world and know there's so many awful things happening. And you're reminding people just to believe in Allah and believe Allah that there is justice in this world. It just doesn't necessarily come about in the way that we went.

Fatimah (48:42.663)

Mm.

Rose Aslan (48:47.832)

to see right now somehow. It's a very hard thing to swallow though. What do you tell people who I'm sure you have clients and yourself and many people in your life who are really struggling with how to reconcile with what they're seeing happen around the world, especially to many Muslims and how to just exist?

Fatimah (49:06.745)

Yeah, definitely is a big question and think something that I've even been grappling with myself and these last 12 months and beyond. And so what I'm doing for myself is really feeling into

what's kind of my sphere of control, right? Whatever that is, am I filling that up completely, right? Because I think there is only so much that we can do, but I also think that there's a lot of distraction, right? So I say, first try to seek clarity, and that can come from taking a day off of social media or taking a week also for social media. think we need more heart -led work.

And I think there is a crisis of people not connected to their hearts. They're connected to their pain, they're connected to their anger, they're connected, and rightfully so. And when we're thinking about useful responses, if we're trying not to have this be perpetuated and repeated, we can't go for the same strategies and tools that God has here. And so the polarization, the us versus them, the not seeing the human being the way that God has said that we are, right? There is, is...

beauty and benefit and all of that, even when souls have done the worst atrocities, it's like we have to do something different. And I feel like people are caught in a cycle of using the same strategies that someone has to be dehumanized and someone has to be on top, whether it is shifting the powers that be. And it's like that idea that framing is not what's going to work of having that level of superiority. I think also starting with the neighbors.

I had to say for myself, and I am grateful that I went through this Islamic psychology program at the time that all of this that was unfolding in Gaza because it was like, it was my professors, like in classes, we were like, and they were like, bringing us back to like, well, who is in control? If your strategy for what you're trying to do in the world is not grounded in who's actually in control, then you're gonna bring yourself out.

Rose Aslan (51:03.529)

Yeah.

Fatimah (51:11.633)

you're going to deplete yourself, right? But when you get clarity on, what am I doing that's within my locus of control, whether it's calling representatives, whether it is connecting with people, because a lot of this is about dividing people and not having us recognizing our collective power, right? How are you bringing people into community? How are you seeking community yourself? It's what I've to do for myself, because it got really rough where I was like, I think especially with the children.

Rose Aslan (51:28.184)

Mm

Fatimah (51:40.167)

the images of.

Rose Aslan (51:42.542)

It's impossible to see those images and not feel devastated.

Fatimah (51:46.649)

I felt myself, I even felt it coming up, felt myself hugging my children more, right? How do I just have a heart of gratitude, right? And how do I give that to people? Like, how do I go back to the sun now? Like, smiling is charity. How are you checking in on people in ways that we are told to be so afraid and so scared that we shut ourselves down because our nervous systems are overstimulated and we can't operate from that place. And that too is a strategy.

We could just overwhelm people's systems till they are frozen. They still can't act from their hearts. So I invite people, how do you connect back to your heart and what comes from there? Because when it's truly heart -centered work, it's gonna come in the space of having courage to speak up when you need to speak up, having courage to reach out to people, right? Tackling homelessness in your own communities. Like there's things that you can do locally, even if you can't ever have impact where you're not.

where we see a lot of the injustice happening, it's like, okay, over there, the world is, there's so much evil happening. How do we balance that out here? And that has been the saving thing for me of like, okay, I'm doing the things that I'm locally here, donating, going to different events. That has felt like, okay, I can do this. And it builds up the confidence to start to do a bit more, a bit more. But I was like, you gotta have your nervous system regulated. And that usually takes not.

being on social media doesn't mean not being informed because sometimes people I think it's conflated. I'm not going to know about anything, but it's like how you know if you're knowing in a way that is making it hard for you to sleep, you're not taking care of yourself. You're not going to be you're not going to be able to give the best of yourself to this cause. So this movement to this fight because you're not well, we need people who are well for the sustainability of these efforts.

Rose Aslan (53:16.354)

Mm

Rose Aslan (53:20.366)

Mm

Rose Aslan (53:35.778)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (53:41.294)

Mm

Fatimah (53:42.151)

But if we're all burnt out and depleted, which I think many people who really care about this have been, I think we have to kind of restore and rejuvenate ourselves with a plan. So it's not just, all right, I'm gonna take the app off my phone and then I'm just gonna go by my light. It's like, no, make a list, sit with people. What can I be doing that's gonna fortify me? And that's like, we're gonna find local people who are doing the same thing. We're gonna join these Zoom groups. If we're gonna be on a screen, it's gonna be with people who are

Rose Aslan (53:52.483)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (54:06.733)

No.

Fatimah (54:12.455)

Talking face -to -face versus a scroll that is so disconnected and what that does to our brain. So I was like have a plan It's not just take it off and then avoid Because some of I think some of the the viewing Humanizes it and it gives us just enough fuel to keep going. This is not okay. Something is still not happened It's not okay, but we don't want to ingest it so much where this is not okay and now I'm flooded and I almost paralyzed

Rose Aslan (54:14.85)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Rose Aslan (54:21.151)

Mm

Rose Aslan (54:36.802)

Yeah. Thank you for sharing. It's very powerful and I hope those listening find that they have more ideas for resources when they are feeling just helpless in this world. A question for you, Fatima. When you're going through difficulties, when you're feeling dysregulated yourself, what do you do for yourself?

Fatimah (54:47.398)

Yeah.

Fatimah (54:56.677)

Once I notice what's happening, first, usually what I say is like, whoa, what is happening? Right? And so that's my way to say like, the team would check in, like, what is happening? How did I get here? Because the very thing that I'm talking with you all about, I'm trying to work on, like, why am I on my phone so much? And so usually I find like, okay, this is, I'm very clear that most of my phone time is an avoidance of something, right? If I think about something and it's like, how do I do that? Or I'm overwhelmed. I'll say what's happening, what's going on.

Rose Aslan (55:01.059)

Mm

Fatimah (55:26.427)

And then I want to hear what is the prevailing thought. And it's something that like, can't handle, I can't handle something. So then I sit with like, okay, there's a part of me that feels like I can't handle this. And I've done similar things in the past. I am able to do it, but what's was actually getting under it. And lately it's been like, it's not that I can't. I'm tired and I don't want to, but I have.

committed to something. And so just getting the truth of what that is can be really helpful of like, okay, I'm tired. So I have to look a month in advance to see where can I put in rest versus I don't know how to do something. Let me figure it out. I could spend energy reading books, reading articles when it's just like, that's not even really what's happening here. I do know how to do it, but there's something inside that is tired and need a break. And so usually I pause to check in.

Rose Aslan (55:54.51)

Mm

Fatimah (56:26.383)

ask myself, have I drank enough water? Are my basic needs met? Because my system is that I can have a system that works a lot and checking emails, there's a lot of different things that I do. And so oftentimes I'm checking in with like, what's really going on here? Have I eaten? Do I have enough water? Am I meeting my water goals? And do I need to move? Because most of what I do, all of what I do is virtual. so...

Rose Aslan (56:32.152)

Yeah.

Rose Aslan (56:46.1)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Fatimah (56:49.433)

Usually I'm like, OK, I need to go for a walk. I've been in three meetings. It's been about three hours. And I've been sitting, let me get up and go for a walk. And sometimes I need connection. Because I'm virtual, because I'm solo, I'm often by myself outside of these interactions. And so I'm like, when's the last time that I spoke to a person?

Rose Aslan (57:03.329)

Mm.

Fatimah (57:10.063)

just to say hi. So I might call and talk to my sister. And so I'm having these checks of like, I would say starting with like, what are your needs when you are the best version of yourself and have that checklist, right? I feel my best when I've danced, when I've listened to music, when I've walked, when I'm caught up in my prayers throughout the day, right? And so then when something is feeling off, you can go through your mental checklist. And that can be really, it's been helpful for me and it's a work in progress.

Rose Aslan (57:36.162)

Yeah, I can relate. have many of the similar kind of things in my toolkit, know, someone who also works from home solo. The connection is so essential. Sometimes I'm like, I just need to be in front of someone and see their entire body in front of me and like not just from, you know, from like chest up, right? It's like so different. It's lovely to connect to people on the screen, but my God, in person is like, it feels even more valuable now than it did when I had a normal pre -COVID life.

Fatimah (57:50.47)

Yes.

Fatimah (57:54.577)

Yeah.

Fatimah (58:05.507)

Absolutely, yes. I wanna see your toes. I wanna see a full person.

Rose Aslan (58:07.223)

Yeah, exactly. I would see you with four dimensions. you have a book, like there's, can see behind you, everything. Yeah, I can really relate to that. So as we wrap up, I realized we didn't get to Islamic psychology and I really just wanted to talk about it a little bit. I think people will be very interested in like a minute or two. Do you think you can tell us a little bit about this modality and why you're just really, you're clearly so excited about it?

Fatimah (58:35.847)

Islamic psychology for me has been an invitation to return home to myself. really kind of, the course that I did really was, it was rich with what are we dealing with in modern society? Where did the tradition of Islamic psychology and Islamic scholarship and Muslims treating these conditions come from? So just the history of, you know,

Psychology didn't start with Freud, right? There were generations of people and Muslims, right? Do building these institutions of treatment and then the way that their ethic of treating people came from the Quran and the Sunnah, right? Making sure that the most vulnerable are taken care of and that they're not off out of the city, but they are a part of city life. So these maristands or treatment facilities being

built in the middle of cities and not like something that you have to avoid. And so it's been, in many ways, I feel like a reclamation of values, even in the medical, mental health system, which oftentimes comes from the medical model and really breaks people down into these parts versus treating the whole human. And so Islamic psychology, I think, is an offering of putting the soul back into psychology, right? Like rather than just focusing on the brain and the body, it's like,

the soul of the person, which we all are, and how do we treat the conditions of the soul and the diseases of the heart, and how do we do that in a way that respects the dignity of the human, regardless where they are on their spectrum of forgetfulness. They talk about this constant cycle of forgetfulness and remembrance, and so how to people remember who they already are.

in the midst of so many different layers and veils of forgetfulness that are orchestrated for us to forget them.

Rose Aslan (01:00:38.721)

Wow, I look forward to hearing more from you as you, I know you're still in your integration process from completing the program. So I'm looking forward to hearing, you know, what comes out in this period of transition. As we wrap up, I really appreciate you being open and vulnerable and transparent about your own learning process, healing process, which I think is so valuable, especially because of your profession. Would you like to conclude by sharing any pearls of wisdom with listeners?

lessons learned over life that you think are really important for others to hear.

Fatimah (01:01:12.699)

Mmm.

Fatimah (01:01:16.999)

So one lesson in life that feels really important to me and that I'm digesting, I guess shared a bit, trusting the process, trusting the details of your life as being meant for you, that there aren't mistakes even in the worst of the worst. Really looking at how to not waste our pain because there is a gem within our pain.

that's waiting for us when we're able to see it as that. And that community, community, community, community, to not give in the delusion of individualism, that you're only here, it's just you, that you're by yourself, your people exist. Find them because we need each other. If it's not clear now, we...

We all need each other. And it's about hearts. Not all of this out here, the way that right now we definitely socialize to believe that we should only like people who look the same way we do or dress the same way we do really connect into people's hearts. And it starts with connecting to your own.

Rose Aslan (01:02:33.515)

thank you. I'm definitely gonna be thinking and pondering upon what you've shared today in this conversation. And well, thank you for being on the podcast.

Fatimah (01:02:44.743)

Thank you, Rose. Thank you for having me and I hope it's of benefit to you and your listeners.

Rose Aslan (01:02:48.287)

Yeah, thank you. And if people want to find you online, where do they go? I'm going to put it in the show notes, but please just tell us also.

Fatimah (01:02:54.469)

Yeah, so my website is www .healingdifferently .com. I'm also on Instagram, though hopefully less, at Fatima Finney LMHC. And they can find me at Fatima Finney on LinkedIn.

Rose Aslan (01:03:09.951)

Okay, great. Thank you so much. And be in touch. Okay.