Becoming Whole Again After Burnout and Heartbreak: A Conversation with Ameera Aslam

In this episode of Rahma with Rose, I sit down with poet and writer Ameera Aslam to explore what it means to soften without losing your edge. Ameera speaks openly about her evolving relationship with Islam, from early rigidity and burnout to a slower, more spacious faith. We talk about spiritual exhaustion, divorce, rebuilding self-worth, and what it takes to listen for your voice in a world that constantly tries to quiet it. 

Ameera shares how connecting with the Prophet Muhammad, studying with women scholars, and returning to embodied practices helped her move from resentment to trust. This conversation is for anyone navigating disillusionment, identity, or the long road home to themselves.

Ameera Aslam is a bestselling author, award-winning poet, translator, editor, and activist from Singapore. Her work has appeared in various publications, both locally and internationally. Desiring Light, her first poetry anthology, won the Daybreak Press Book Awards in 2021. Her third book, When You Think You’re Falling, published in March 2024, has been on multiple bestseller lists, including Singapore’s national newspaper, The Straits Times. Her activism includes speaking out against domestic violence and supporting domestic violence survivors, as well as raising awareness and funds for migrant workers in Singapore (#SGMuslims4MigrantWorkers).

Find Ameera on Instagram: @AmeeraAslamWrites

Transcript

as salaam alaikum, Ameera and welcome to Rahma with Rose. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show. I'm so happy to be here. I've been listening to your podcast or reading stuff about it, so I'm just an honor to be speaking to you. I'm being on the podcast today. Yeah, wonderful. And I always like to say where I met the my guest, and we had connected through the Muslim writer salon, and I really connect with your writing, especially because we've had some similar life experiences and circumstances, and I've just really enjoyed all the writing I've seen from you, and a lot of it is you being very vulnerable and outspoken and really brave. So I've taken a lot from your writing, and I really wanted to hear more about your story, and for others also to hear about your story in this in this format. So thank you. Thank you very much. I'm glad, glad to be here. And, yeah, I'm really, I'm really, I mean, you know, when I was younger, I used to get really annoyed when people say, like, Oh, you're so brave. You're so brave. And I was like, I didn't want to be brave. I didn't want to be, you know, and I wish I didn't have to be brave. But like, Now, obviously, I'm just like, yes, it is a brave thing, and I'm and I hope that that rubs off on others as well. Because, like, we don't get to choose our life circumstances sometimes, but we do get to choose how we, I guess, use that, or like, you know, for me now it's just my my big thing is just like, I get to use my voice, and I want to help others to find their voice and use them as well. So, yeah, yeah, I'm so glad you're doing that, especially based being from Singapore, based in Malaysia and and supporting women in that part of the world is really important, because we need, you know, women on the healing path everywhere in the world, you know, spreading this message and this revolution. So it's wonderful to have you here, and I'm going to start with the first question, as you know I ask every guest, is, can you remember when you first started getting interested in spirituality? Yes. So I feel like my first, the first time I started to even, like think about spirituality or think about that, like there has to be something more was when I came back from my very first Umrah, and I was in uni, my first year in uni, and my family had gone for Umrah. It was the first time for all four of us. It was my parents and me, my younger brother. And then when I came back, I think it was just the stock of the stuckness of the experience, like, you know, feeling super fulfilled when I was at Umrah, and I was like, everything was easy, like, we're praying and making dua and Quran and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I came back and I'm like, wait a minute, I'm back in school, like I'm doing homework, like I just couldn't, I just couldn't, I guess it was, it was a big struggle. And I know everybody talks about, like the Umrah withdrawal symptoms, but because I think was my first experience, and I was still young, and I was just, I couldn't understand what it was. And I think suddenly, like, like everything felt what is the word? Not empty, but dry. It felt like my worship was dry. Like, like I was praying and I was reading the Quran, and like I was doing things that I was supposed to be doing, that I did before I went from but I think when I came back, it was just like, suddenly it wasn't enough anymore. Wasn't enough anymore. Like, suddenly I was like, there has to be something more to this. And I think that's when I started, I guess, like, really, like, reading more about, like, Sufism. And then, you know, like, I always wondered, like, What do you mean? You love God? Like, that's, is it something that we can't do? I always like, I think my experience growing up was always like, you're supposed to, like, fear Him and, like, obey Him. But this idea of like, loving God was just something really, like, strange to me. And so I think that was, like, a bigger question that I had, like, in my 20s. And then I think that's when I, you know, I guess, slowly discovered, oh, there's people doing Zk, and like, oh, this actual real life Sufi is right now in like 2020, in the in the in the 20th century, in summer 20th century. And so I think that was my first experience in finding the spiritual pa beautiful. So tell me more about what Islam, what spiritual meant to you before you had that Umrah experience. Because obviously you grew up as a Muslim. What did religion, spirituality mean to you before that? Yeah, so I think it was. I grew up with my parents, mashallah, then put people, but I didn't see them praying. I think the only, the only religious things that we would celebrate was Ramadan. We would pray. We would fast the drum, and then we would celebrate Eid. But like, the rest of like, you know, I didn't really see them, like, praying and stuff, and I started wearing the hijab. And when I wanted to wear the hijab, and I was 16 years old, my parents were like, what? Why, you know, like, I was like, whatever. Why am I supposed to be doing this and stuff? And so I was the first person to start praying in the family. And like, everybody was just like, what is happening to her? Like, where did this come from, and and stuff. And then, I mean, our man, now we pray together, like, you know, the whole works. But like, I think in those days it was really hard. I just felt like, really like, like, alone in the journey. But, yeah, so, I mean, so that was it, like, like, we slowly started praying as family, and, you know, like going for classes together and stuff. And so that was, that was my experience of Islam. Just like, Okay, we have to go through more sometimes. I mean, my parents, they always send me, my younger brother for like, classes all right, weekend, Islamic school, right? But it was always like, Okay, I learned these things in Sunday school, but I don't see that happening in the family. But I mean in terms of the rituals, but in terms of, I guess, the ethics of Islam, I realized my parents have always been like, you know, they're always like, generous with neighbors, they're kind, they're like, you know, all those things, but like, the actual ritual themselves, like, that was what was missing. And so, yeah. And so I guess after Umar, I was just gonna need more than just what we were doing before. Um, yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing. It's interesting to hear, you know, this evolution from it sounds like more. What Islam meant to was more rule. Was it more rule based approach to Islam? Or is that? What did it mean to you? Yeah. So I guess when I first started, you know, when I first started putting on, like, the hijab, and then, like, wanting to be like a better person, and learning how to pray and all of that, it was really, I mean, it's, I always think back about that period of time, because the thing that really changed my life was reading his book The remnants of death and afterlife and and it's so crazy, because, like, I had gone completely, like, super overzealous, right? Because, like, that, obviously, I had to pick a book on death. And, like, I was, like, 18 years old. Like, nobody, no, 18 year old things, really thinks about death. Like, you know, I'm going to school, I'm, like, enjoying, like, the whole life ahead of me so far. And then I read this book, and I was completely terrified. I was like, oh, oh my god. Like, I'm going to die. Like, literally, the angel of that on his way to me, and I'm here, like, Hitlers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and so. So I had so much resentment to my parents, because I was like, why didn't you send me to a madrasa? Why did you send me? And, like, why did you waste my time? I'm now in uni doing, like, some secular subjects and whatever, when I have so much to catch up on. And so, like, I think those few years, actually, the early years, I was really filled with a lot of like, resentment and like, anger towards my parents, and I guess it's also anger towards God, because I was like, well, you chose for me to be born in Singapore, like, if you wanted me to be a better person, why didn't you make me Why didn't you, why wasn't I a Malaysian, like, born in, like, a Muslim majority, right? Like, and had all these, like, questions and stuff, now, just bitter all the time. And so when I find out about, like, you know, shooting all these Sufis who love God, I was like, how? And I was just like, I really wanted to understand it. And I think I was still, like, I was still in my head, right? I was like, I was a uni student. I was like, the first in my family go to uni and like, and I was just like, you know, really, I was like, I really depended on my intellect, I guess, to, like, understand life and understand all these things. And that's not how Islam is, right, submission, right? Your heart has to submit, instead of, like, trying to understand why God does this or does that anyway. So, yeah, so that's, you know, like, it was really a weird space where I was really hard on myself but also hard on people around me, right? And so I think I'm pretty sure my parents at the time felt like, like, they really felt like, like, out of their depths, because they were like, Oh, she thinks she's better than or like they I think I'm. Made them feel like they didn't do enough to nurture my, I guess, Islamic upbringing, or whatever. I feel really bad about it now, but, but, yeah, it was really, actually my journey started with lots of bitterness, to be honest. And, yeah, very just harsh. And I think, you know, I think we all well, maybe not this, uh, this an assumption to be made. But like, you know, it's early uni days, like, I think a lot of us would have had a brush with, I guess, the Salafi Wahhabi strain of Islam, right? And so, you know, like, I was really, really hard on myself, on, like, this whole I'm dying, and I need to, like, make up for all these things. But then also, like, and instead of just working on myself, I wanted to change everything around me. Not understand that everybody had their own journeys. And I was like, you know, using that stick instead of judging myself, I'm judging others as well and blaming everybody. Like, oh, my parents didn't do enough, or, like, because we had to go to my grandma's house every weekend. And like, everybody wants to watch TV and like, I can't do anything else. Like, everybody's taking my time away from God and stuff like that. It was so my thing insufferable, right? We always think we're the best and the smartest and everything. Yeah, exactly, and so. So that was why I get to be on my journeys, bitterness, resentment, all these things. It's just not sustainable. There's only so much you can, you know, go on your journey and just be angry, angry, angry all the time. And so I guess, you know, few years down the line, I was just like, I just really, I guess I had a, what I call, like a spiritual breakdown, and and then I think that was when I started to like, I guess, sincerely, let's just seek God. I was just like, I just want to know who you are. I just want to know like, like, it cannot be that you put us on this Earth only to like, punish us. And, you know, I'm sure there's like, more to like, I just want to, I just, I want to know who you are like. And I think I started with going for a class on the 99 names, good question. I was like, okay, that must be, that's, that's, that should be where I start, right? Like, I've studied Akita classes before, or whatever, but I don't know if that was helping me. Instead, it was just like, oh, this everything. And so I was like, you know, I want everything, everything else, to be quiet. Because I was, you know, I was in uni, but I was attending so many classes throughout the week, so, like, I was barely in school, because I wanted to quit school. Actually, I want to quit uni. I wanted to move to Syria. And my parents were like, What are you talking about? No, like, they had to get like, Imam Buddha that they were studying from to, like, speak to me. They're like, Please tell her that in the we don't need everybody to be asat Isa. We need the our studying sociology, and we need sociologists. We need like, political scientists. We need everybody in the UMA, like, you don't have no, everybody has to be a scholar. And I was like, No, I need to leave right now. But, you know, I couldn't, but which meant that I was, you know, mentally in school. I was paying like 20% attention, and then, like, every day I had, like, Arabic classes and like, oh my god, I just completely burnt out, right? Because I was just like, I couldn't handle all of that. And so eventually I was just like, Okay, I'm just gonna stick to this one class. I just want to know who you are. Just tell me who you are, because I'm clear, I'm sure that the journey I've been on is not what you meant for me. Because, like, because, of course, I mean, I was sufferable, so I was, like, losing friends, and I couldn't recognize myself. My parents couldn't recognize me. I didn't have a relationship with my family. And so like, look, I'm sure, I'm sure this is not what you meant for me. And so, so slowly, slowly, I wanted to, like, learn about him. And then I guess that's when, okay, now, now, now, I guess you are ready to learn more. Oh, it was that class on the 99 Names of God that really helped open things and change things for you. Then I would say that that helped in changing my perception of God. But that's, obviously, that's a is an ongoing thing, right? Like i The more, the longer I go on, like, the more I am in awe and in gratitude of him, you know, so, like, it was a slow process, but I think what really, really, really I get, I think, made the biggest transformation for me in terms of my spiritual journey, was actually having a personal relationship with the Prophet. Because, like, growing up, I would learn about, like, you know, in Sira class, we learn about all the battles, all this and that. And I'm like, Okay, I know he's the Prophet and stuff. And again, it was just like, but what does he have to tell me he was, he's an Arab man from, like, 1004 years ago. I'm a very modern woman in the 21st Century again, last like, Why could he possibly have to, like, offer me, like, okay, maybe God meant for him to be the Prophet. But, like, what does that bother to with me? Right? And also, I guess in Sierra class, it was, I I felt like there was a lot of emphasis on the battles. And I was like, That's not like, I'm not fighting any battles. And, like, you know, and in Singapore is, like, you know, a multiracial, multi religious place. I would always talking about how many harmony. And I was like, I'm not going to go be fighting my neighbors or whatever. So, like, you know. But it was only, I think, in 2012 If I remember when I had attended this as retreat with Sheik Hamas and he for some reason, even though he's saying the same things that I've heard before, but it just it like the Prophet Salam and his companions become, like, real people to me, like, like, suddenly they were like, okay, they're not just, like, he wasn't just a messenger who came with the Quran and like, Okay, this is for you, but he himself is the person that we need to model after. And like, you know, just the way that he was dealing with his family and everything. Like, you know, I think, and again, like I was speaking about this recently, that like, the older you get, the more you will relate to the prophet as you go on, because, like, I guess, like, if I never, if, maybe if I heard, like, oh, there was, this was how the Prophet was in uni, then I was, okay, this is how I should be in uni. But because I didn't have that, we didn't hear that kind of stories. But later on, you can when you learn that, oh, he also lost his son. And then you like, Oh, I've lost people in like, his lost friends, I've lost my grandparents. And then I guess those are the intersections where you're like, oh, okay, so yes, even though he was the prophet, he was just a man, like, he's a human person that, you know, like, if God seemed too far, then he is the person that's closer that, like, I can practically, like, take advice from more, like, you know, live in his footsteps and stuff like that. And so I think just that having like living the Prophet also helped in my relationship with God as well, some, somehow, somewhere. But I think that would have, I think that made a bigger, a bigger, a bigger change. And I think for me as a woman going through divorce and but just just generally, also as a woman like I feel like that was a long time after, you know, like in my in the unit days and after that, in my 20s, where, like, the message that I kept getting was that it is so hard to be a Muslim woman. Oh, it's so hard to be a good Muslim woman. Like, for men, you pray five times a day. Gosh, Allah, they clap for you. But if a woman waits, you wear hijab. No, it's not, it's not long enough. Um, you're still wearing pants, or you're wearing lip gloss or lipstick or eye makeup, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Oh, my God, I literally do more than a man, but like, they get celebrated for, like, the bare minimum, and like, for me, like, and then, you know, because I Yeah, so, right. I'm an activist. I was very vocal about a lot of things that, like, again, I was like, oh, like, you know, like, the best Muslim women are neither heard nor seen, and I'm just like, well, then I can't. I don't want to be the best. I just want to be an existing Muslim woman and whatever, and so, and, yeah, I don't know. I think having that relationship with the Prophet Salam and knowing that his wives were all so different from each other, so different, like, which, to me, it was like, Look, there is space for all of us to come God in all of our full personalities. And also, like, I'm not trying to be this, whatever person I am, just I'm trying my best, honestly, to be like, to worship God and to be the best person that I am. But I can, you know, I felt like I spent so long trying to, like, diminish aspects of my self, because I felt like, oh, the message I kept getting wherever I went was like a Muslim moment is, and then there's a whole long list, and I'm like, There's no way anybody's ever going to fill up all those things. And even if I try and I managed to fit this in this community, if I go to a different one, they're like, No, we have a different set of rules for Muslim women here. Like, in these places, you only wear black. If you wear any colors, you're not good enough Muslim. And then, like, you know, there's so many and I just, like, for men, they just, like, saunter everywhere. And like, I just felt like it was so fan. So for many years, I was like, why? Like, and so I really made a lot of dua, like, you know, that I just wanted to understand the religion the way that Allah intended for it to be, and, and, and, you know, just, I want to be grateful to be a Muslim woman. I don't want to be bitter and resentful about this, right? And so, yeah. So I think just like, you know, having that relationship with the Prophet sallam, and knowing that he supported his wives, he was, he was he, I know maybe people find this controversial, whatever, but I he is. He was the first feminist. Like, I really believe the professor was a feminist. I believe that too, yeah, like, Who are you men trying to, like, reduce this, like he did so much like to, like, elevate us and and you are trying to tell me that you are trying to put me in the corner and whatever based on the propositions away because, and so that's why I felt like, I think studying the religion for myself was really, really important, because it's like, I'm not gonna let it like someone else's interpretation, you know, like, affects how I view my religion, because I'm sure that there's more to it, and, you know, and yeah, and so that led me, I guess, to when, when I started studying with dramaturg with Auntie Dr Tamara Gray, and, like, just with female scholars. Like, I guess that just, you know, helped so much more with, like, having confidence and, like, just, I. Accepting who I am. And also, I feel like growing up in like Singapore, Malaysia, Mashallah. I mean, the Malays are very soft spoken people, very, very soft spoken. And I think that's one of the, I mean, it's a very good mashallah quality of them. But I have, like, Pakistani blood, and so I think maybe that's why I'm more vocal. And so it was really, honestly, like growing up, I always thought, like, there's no way I can be like a good enough Muslim woman, just because I'm just because I'm just so loud and I laugh like a banshee, and like, I just can't help myself and stuff. And like, it was only when I started studying with Auntie Tamara gray and she, if you've ever heard her laugh, she's just like, you know, she's just laughing, like she's just her own person. And I was like, and I remember feeling like, Oh, my God, a Muslim woman allowed to laugh loudly, like, you know, and like, I was, I mean, that's such a stupid question to even think, right? I mean, you just, you love how you laugh, but like, it just so ingrained for like, all these years that like, Oh, you're not supposed to be seen or heard that, like, for me to see a female scholar laugh. I mean, to granted you all the like, women's pony spaces, but I was just, like, she, she just had a wee object, that whole confident of, like, I am a female Muslim scholar, like, and you can't take that, because I have done, I put in the work, I put in the years I'm, you know, not that we have to prove ourselves or anything, but like, you know, I just seeing her was just outside, yes, yeah. So interesting them, you know. So what I'm hearing is that you found your authentic expression of yourself by going back to history, by studying the Prophet Muhammad's life as Salim and by learning from other, from female scholars, to feel more authentically yourself, which is so interesting because I haven't heard that approach before, and women kind of finding themselves. So I found it really powerful to hear that, you know, just seeing a woman scholar being herself because I relate, you know, when I was being raised as a Muslim, and, you know, after becoming Muslim in my 20s, I was in Egypt, and I was supposed to be quiet and act submissive and laughing and being myself around men especially, was not really a thing. It was so Abe. It was so taboo, right? So I completely relate that you have to repress so many parts of yourself in those very conservative Muslim environments. And it's not Islam, it's just their interpretation of Islam, but it's so oppressive, really. But what I hear you saying is that that just cultural interpretation. And really, if you go back to the Prophet Muhammad's biography Sira, you'll find that actually, the way he interacted with the woman in his life was very liberating. He he saw them for who they were and accepted them for who they were, like, he didn't force them to change, right? Yeah, yeah. Exactly like, I think that's the thing that, like, you know, I really appreciated that he, he has such a gift of, like, seeing the Companions, female or males as, like, what their purpose was and what their gifts are, and just supporting them, and like, being the best version of them, right? And so like, I mean, we hear all like, you know, like nusaiva, she's actually fighting, like, fighting, literally, yeah. And that I'm like, in these days, I'm like, you know, I started doing Muay Thai in 2020, during COVID, when everybody was baking. I was like, Nah, baking. And my mother was just like, you're a Muslim woman. Why are you doing doing Muay Thai? And I was like, Mommy, I mean, I didn't use that as I really don't like people using religion to, like, justify their decisions, and that's why I never really say that. But in my head, I was like, on the sidebar, but also I was just like, you know, I just, I just want to be, like, healthy and strong and like, like, like, don't use the religion to stop me. But I'm also not going to justify my things. But it's just like, you know, this is what I want and I like, and I if I can take care of myself and take care of my modesty or whatever, in the best way that I can, they're like, not you like, we shouldn't, really shouldn't have all these things. Like, I know, that's just her trying to be like, you know. And then she was like, no, no. It's just maybe I don't know whether it's safe. And I was like, I'm not going to, like, go and have a fight, mommy's I'm not learning spa. I just want to learn the basics and stuff like that. But like, you know, it's just we have all these ideas about what a Muslim woman should be, you know. And then, like, when you go back to the Sierra, there was so many of them. They were like, so different. Yes, there were those who prefer not to be seen and heard. And then there were others who were, like, out there on the battlefield, literally. And then there's so many different kinds of women. And so I was just like, Yeah, we should just that isn't there shouldn't be one Muslim woman example. And so, yeah, exactly. So even in my like, drama, like, there's so many different kinds of teachers there, you know, there's some teachers who are like faces, some teachers who prefer not to speak to men. And like, this is different kinds. And it's just like, the point is that, what is it that you are comfortable with, and what is the gift that you have, that God has given you, and the talent that God has given you like then use those things you know, in his way. And so, yeah, this has been, been a great blessing to have met. And then you know, all the other is there. So you mentioned building a relationship with the prop. Hamad say some and I think a lot of people will be like, what does that mean? He's dead, you know. And so for listeners who are like, not quite sure what that means, could you explain other than just reading his biography, what does it mean as a modern Muslim woman to have a relationship with him? Um, I feel like, yeah, it's really hard to explain how it is I can say would be like, yes, we have to then, like, he see Ra, and it's important to do the whole like, slower and just wanting to have that love. Because, like, you know, I that again. I think my thing that I always think about, I don't know whether being a poet or whatever is like, I'm always thinking about, how is it that people love the divine, or, how is it that people love the Prophet? And like, the idea of love is just something that I'm just like, oh. And so, you know, there's that hadith about how we have to love him more than our parents and everybody else and even our own selves. And then said, Omar said, was like, I do love you, but, like, not more than myself. And then he was like, Well, not yet. Then, like, your iman, your mind is not complete until you love him more than yourselves, right? And then, and then, like, then said, No more. Like, pause for a minute. And he was like, Okay, now I do a few more than myself. And then the proposal, okay, now your iman is complete. And so I was just like, what happened there? And also like, how do you get there? I'm like, You. I mean, the second language was living with the Prophet. Like, you could see him, you could, like, interact with him, and so you could then love him, right? So like, what does it mean for me? Like, who lives 1000 parties later? How am I supposed to love this person that I have never seen, never met? And so I think, like, I think that's where I started to just, like, really want, wanting to understand that. And like, I mean, and like, I mean, it's so cliche, but like, there's, there's a saying in Malay that canal, which means, like, if you don't know someone, you can love them, right? And so it's true knowing him, but I think it's also knowing him through not just books, but through teachers or through others who loved him. And so when you see that, because I think that was what I was really searching for, because I was like, Well, I don't understand what that means. And then so when I see people who who love Him and really take him as the guide, then I see that like they are one of the most joyful, peaceful, most generous people. And so I was like, okay, clearly there's something there, like your love for the Prophet Sallam has made you like this, you know. And so just spending time with these people, I think they are the their love for the Prophet sallallahu on you. And I think people will have different paths to this, just because we all have different temperaments and different whatever. And for me as a poet, my way through loving the Prophet Sallam is reading poetry in praise of him and attacking knowledge and listening to Kas. And I feel like, when the when someone's playing the drums and praising the Prophet, that's when my heart feels most alive. And I feel like nothing, nothing compares to it. And so like, you know, like, even though I've tried, maybe I'm not gonna, always gonna have this, like, gatherings or whatever. So let me go through the books or, like, doing my own like, Okay, let's see. Maybe I can do 200 slower a day, or 500 slower a day, and, like, try to increase in that and stuff. But every time I'm in a in a gathering of people singing his praises, I'm like, Yeah, this is it. This is the fastest and clearest and most powerful, effective way for my heart to feel love for him. And so, yeah, I'm sure that sounds a bit extra, but like, yeah. I mean, I feel to me, Islam is the it's a it's a result of doing. It's not like reading or like just learning. It's like you have to just plunge and do. If they say, okay, just do. And then you, you will experience it for yourself. Inshallah, embodied religion, right? It's not a religion of just the mind, but also using our body to fulfill what's in the mind, right? So, yeah, yeah, beautiful, yeah. You know, many, many moons years ago, I wrote my master's thesis on consider the border the poem of the border the mantle. So I spent like the whole year studying interpret Sufi interpretations of the border, and look, and then I had compiled a YouTube Collection of like, hundreds of versions of the border from around the world, from all different, yeah, sure, I think it's somewhere on YouTube, so, you know, it's not public. But yeah, it was so fascinating to see all the ways that people had special love through poetry, and then even interpreting the poetry. And they spent hundreds of books just interpreting this one poem, and then all the ways of singing it. And, yeah, it is amazing how much Muslims do have this affinity for praising the Prophet in in song. Especially, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So apart from, I know that you've been on this beautiful spiritual path of learning about Islam, becoming a soft Muslim, versus the harsh approach that you had in the past. And I think you've all, from my understanding, you've also been on the healing path too. So can you talk a little bit more about that? I know you've had some difficulties come up, and so. What's helped you along this path? I'm trying to, I'm trying to think about which difficulty to start talking about, first, whatever your control with, yeah, because I mean, like, so we talked about the whole feeling like the whole resentment and bitterness and so having to heal from that, or transform that into something else. Was, I think it was, you know, just knowing a lot more and knowing that he is all wise and that he never makes a mistake, helped me to accept that, like my upbringing, or everything that I had gone through before, no matter how hard it was, was written by him and and by him, meaning him, with all of his wisdom and out of love. He was never out of spite. It was never out of, you know, to punish me or anything. And it was always like, and I think until I really internalized that, like, God only does things for our betterment, of in our in our favor, then I was like, okay, which means that everything that happened before, no matter how much I hated them or like I was, like, bitter or resentful, or anything at all, it all had let me hear and where I am, where I am, safe and happy and joyful and grateful and so. So I think that's something that I still try to remind myself, that okay when something happened that I don't like, which is a lot of times, because I have ideas about what ideal life for myself that I just have to always just remind myself can talk like, look, this is, this is unfolded because it's the best way, and it's just now I just have to respond to it, you know, adult two ways, either I'm patient or I'm grateful. There's no, there's no other outside of it, right? And but, yeah, so I mean in terms of feeling like, you know, that whole healing from feeling like being a Muslim woman is too hard and to like it was a it was a crutch rather than a gift. Um, to me that came through, uh, studying about the prophets, the Prophet and his wives and his female companions, and also studying with Muslim female scholars. Um, and so that has that healed a lot. Because, like, you know, I was just like, you know, people, I mean, every, I think every woman comes to a point where they will ask, like, why are they not female prophets? Or like, why inheritance? Inheritance, not like this or like, Why? Why should we listen to Allah? You know, like, in in the Malay or in the Malay UM community, like, this whole obeying your husband is a very big thing, you know. And so, like, if we just focus on those things, then of course, any woman is going to be like, but that's one fact. And so I needed to, you know, like, understand it on a, I guess, a macro level, like what the Sharia really came to do, and understanding that God is not unjust, right? And so I had to hold these two things while going through on this journey and learning for myself and blah, blah, blah, to know that there's a reason for all of these things. And like, you know, just because Muslims don't implement it in a way that it's meant, it doesn't mean that, like, something's wrong with Islam, or that, like being a Muslim woman's approach, and I refuse to believe that. And I mean, I'm way past that anymore, right now, right and, yeah, I guess the other thing would be like the fact that I'm a divorced woman that also required a lot of it's its own healing journey, and that came through therapy, lots and lots and lots of money from therapy and just, I think, really knowing myself, yeah, was it talk therapy or what I'm curious to hear, what therapy did for you in the process? I think it was. It was talk therapy that I was doing, and then I made sure that the hajit became a part of my thing. I'm fair, for those of people who don't know I like reading the plan every day and just having, like, you know, very certain like litanies that I will read every single day to, like, just fortify myself and depending on my friends a lot, on in those years. Just like, you know, like, I am so blessed. I really am so blessed that I had really, really good friends who who saw what's happening and who put it was just really took care of me in those years. And like this, you know, I was just like, in bed, I didn't want to go out, I didn't want to do anything, and they were just, like, they would just step out of my door. Like, no, we're bringing you to the beach, or, like, whatever coming like, cheesecake and and stuff. And like, I think their love for me helped me to heal the whole like, you know, like I thought, like, okay, like the person that I married couldn't love me, then, like, nobody would. And like, you know, I think it's different, because, like, your parents will be like, Oh, they have to look me, I'm I'm their adult. Yeah, you know, but like, and then, yeah, your friends are like, Oh, they don't really know me. They never live with me. So I had all these things. And, like, you know, when the demos happened, I was just like, Oh, I'm unlovable. I'm unworthy, like, all these things that I had to I didn't know that I had killed them, but I just knew that, like, for me, that was real, that was true, like, it was just facts. In my head, I was like, I am unlivable. I am unwilling and and so I took, like, even my friends kindness as pity and stuff. And so they had to be like, they had to love me out of it, I guess, you know. And nothing like the Mindy of other women that can really lift you out of a bad place, right? Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, and I think, like, and because I I've always enjoyed writing and reading, I think journaling then became a really powerful part in my just making sense of what was happening and what had happened. And I guess rewriting. You know, I used to write like, I know it sounds really silly, but it really has helped me. I literally write, what do I like? Because I had so I was so out of touch with myself that, because I remember there was, it sounds so silly, but like, there was one time when my mom, like, made some dish for me. She said, Oh, because you used to like this or like you, would you like this dish? And I was like, since when? I was like, When did I ever say that I like this thing? But I was like, Oh, my God, I'm so disconnected from myself because I'm so consumed in trying to, like, please this man, and like, save my marriage. And like, all my energy had gone into that, that I had completely forgotten who I was and what I what was important to me and stuff. And so, like, post divorce, I literally was like, Okay, I'm here. You have to know who, who you even are. And so I literally would like, like, write down what do I like? And then I would like, Okay, this way I'm gonna try new, different dishes, just food, just like to see, like, do I like this? All, I have always just said yes because it was always there, and I I did, I didn't. I never learned how to say no or that, like, I didn't like it because I thought there was, I'm being picky, or I'm like, whatever. So I was like, I realized that I didn't even know what I like or didn't like it was just for me. Like, I just didn't want to be a burden. So I was like, yes to everything. And now, like, I'm saying no. Now I need no if I don't like something, I can say that I don't like something, and it sounds so silly, but I had to literally rebuild it from like, those small things, like in terms of food and in terms of like, Okay, do I actually like this song? Or I was just like, No. And like was just like, slowly bringing those things up. And then like, later on, it got into like, I guess, more deeper real things, which is like, what do I value? And the like, what is important to me in my life. And so since I wrote that, like, I would go back to it, like, every few months, every year, so that I know that, like, okay, whatever decisions I'm making, are they reflecting of these values. If they're not, then I'm like, Okay, you have to course correct, like, you're doing this for what and for who. And you know, it's just the whole people pleasing thing, like, just so easy for me to like, oh, because my parents said so, because this person said, Oh, because people expect this with me and stuff like that, and, and I'm saying it as if you're so easy. But this was, this was like, yes, in the making. I was like, I, you know, I'm here to what you're talking about. Something I went through too, as well. You know that I, when I left my ex husband, I didn't know what food I liked, because always we went to hit the place he wanted to go to, and I was like, wait, what do I like and what do I want? I think a lot of us go through that it's really normal, because we push ourselves under so much, and we forget our personality and our true self, because we're pleasing someone else that we completely forget who we actually are, what we want as well. So even though it seems mundane to know, like, What food do I like, it's actually a really deep question, because it's about who are you, and what are your values and and what is it that makes your heart sing and what doesn't? And we forget that when we're in a relationship that steals that from us, right? So it's powerful. Yeah, I feel like, you know, whenever I'm talking to my niece and nephews, and they're like, No, I don't like this. And I'm like, okay, you don't like this. I'm going to affirm that for you. Like, you know, I think an adult, we try to like, no, no. Just try or like, we try to like, guess, like them, even though they're like, No, I've already tried this. I don't like it. Like, why are you trying to make me do it? And I'm like, I feel like, you know, sometimes adults, because we do that as others, we like, we think that it's better like, you have to be like, kind or like. It's nothing to do with kindness, right? But it's just like we bulldoze over our own, our own needs and boundaries and so, you know? So now when kids I'm like, Yeah, I'm so glad you know what you if I'm like, yes, if you don't, if you like this, you like this, you don't like this. I'm not gonna force you, although, as a mother of a child who's incredibly picky, he's gone too far, but I can't. I am unable to force him to eat vegetables, for he's anti vegetable, and I think that's going too far. And I wish I could force him to eat vegetables. I can't. I think he's too empowered with what he I think he should eat vegetables. So, you exactly inshallah. I mean, all tastes change. Inshallah, okay, I won't try not really, really important. I'm glad you brought that up, because I think a lot of women who have gone through this. Kind of experience could relate and someone who are in the abusive marriage, they might actually realize that maybe they don't know who they are, what they want anymore. They've lost that along the way in the relationship, that can was all consuming, right? You know, actually, this is one thing that I that what was so confusing to me also was, you know, because I was studying or reading like Sufism books, right? And there's all this concept about you to negate yourself, to die before you die, and you have to be zero and like, there's no i, and like, you have to submit to God, like a dead body, or sanity or shame, like a dead body, like a porch, right? And I was just like, and I had completely misunderstood all those things and made, I guess, my ex husband, the Shea or the one that I was submitting to, yeah. And so at that time, I thought that was what I was supposed to do, like, Oh, it's a good Sufi, not good Muslim. Good Sufi. I'm supposed to, like, fight my nafs. And so if I like chocolate, no, I don't like chocolate. If I want it, no, I don't want it. Like I was supposed to deny and deny yourself. And because of that conflation, that conflation of because I wasn't wise enough to know what to put things in its proper place, I think that also contributed to like, therefore, erasure of myself. And so it was like a real struggle, because I was like, Wait, is this doesn't mean there's something wrong with Sufism or no, it was just like, I wasn't, like, wise enough then to know how to put things in its place. And so there's also, like, an example of spiritual abuse, when someone asserts themselves and manipulates religion to wield power over someone else to the detriment of religion, right? It's, unfortunately, very common, and some of us just become the victims of this sort of manipulation, and especially if, like, if you're, if you're, if your husband, who you trust and believe, wants the best for you, and he says, like, Oh, I'm only inviting you because I think this is the best for you and your akhira, then you're not going to think that he's trying to abuse you. You're just gonna think like, oh, he cares about me and my Akira, you know. And then you try to shape shift and change, and then after a while, you just like, Wait, why am I the only one doing it all changing, like, uh, or whatever, you know? But by then it's just like, you know, you're just so far out. And like, I think that's why, like, I'm so grateful to my friends who saw it happening? And just like, are you okay? Like, what is happening and stuff like that. And so, yeah, it's just, yeah, if any woman is in that situation and and please reach out, just like, you know, like, honestly, just if you feel like you're losing yourself, like it's really, you're not meant. You're not meant to that Allah made us full, full functioning human beings, and we only submit to Him and nobody else. And none of the things that he gave us, all the talents and the personalities, were not a mistake. And like, we're meant to come back with all of these gifts, like fully, like, there was no wrong, yeah, that's not. It's not, it's not a fooling on our part. Yeah. So please share. It's so interesting to hear your story, and I hear so many resonance with my own. And I'm sure other women might as well. What else do you use in terms of healing modalities? You know when you're feeling down we just spoke about because today we're recording this on Thursday, November 7, and it's just a day after a certain presidency in the United States, and the world is kind of in shock still. And you mentioned you did some things to regulate yourself. Maybe just tell us more about what healing modalities use in your everyday life to just stay balanced and and, yeah, yeah. So I scream when I need to scream. I honestly, I'm not even kidding, like I realized that using my voice, like literal voice, like getting it out, like it really helps me, like, when, you know, I mean, when we when we found out about the whole like, Imam with some Sharif case, that on that day itself, I was really just so upset and so angry and like I had lost my appetite. I couldn't eat. I was just so mad and disgusted. And then the next morning, when I woke up, my body just, I was like, playing music loudly. I was singing, and I realized my body knew I needed it was I just needed to, like, get the stuff out, like, and I need to sing it out. So I was like, singing and with my body. And then, like, I took all neighbors, or it's quiet for you are, yeah, yeah, I do it myself, so I can play however, however loud music I want to. But also, like, music is one, one of the things that I really, I know mix has an effect on my my emotions and, you know, so, like I mentioned, like listening to kasidas, listening to, like, drumming, especially, like, really, really helps me, and then, like, just singing, actually, that's something that I only discovered recently in the past year or so. But other than that, it was like I really have, like, I give myself the space to to be angry. Like, if I need to be angry, I need to cry, I'm. Just going to, I'm just going to do so I'm not going to, like force and like pretend to be okay, because like that never that never helps anyone. It's just going to come out later on, and when it comes out later on, it's just not going to be as pleasant. And it's just having that whole no longer shaming myself for my emotions. Oh, I'm not supposed to be. I'm not supposed to No, no, no, no. If I have to feel it, I have to feel it. And I have this, you know, the room is poem, this being human as a guest house. That's I have this on my table, so, like, it reminds me that, like, whatever I'm supposed to feel, I'm just supposed to welcome it, and it has to just come and go on its way, like, but if I don't let it come and don't feel it, it's just going to, it's just going to stay there, and then I'm not going to be able to, like, move on from it and stuff. But also, like, movement, you know, I realized I'm very, I can be very in my head, like, I'm always like, okay, like, do the spiritual stuff. Like, I pray, I read the Quran. I do flow out, but I need to move my body. And so, like, exercise has been really, you know, something that I tried to do, even if I can go to the gym, like, Okay, I'll just take a walk around the block. Like it's so simple, although, Allah, give it a such simple solution. Take a walk. Look at the trees and the mountains. Like it's bigger than this. Life is bigger than this. Like, whatever problem you're going through, there's a system that's going on. And just being in nature, I think, really helps me growing up as a city girl in Singapore, like, I, I cannot, I cannot go back to the city life. I need to be near trees and rivers and mountains and, you know, just yeah, just to Yeah, less concrete. It's always better for me, yeah, just having, like, a good people that you trust, that you can fall apart in front of, you know, like, you know, this whole, like, sexual abuse situation, like, it's hard to talk about it to people, because, like, you know, if somebody starts victim blaming, I'm just gonna be like, Oh my god, dr, triggered and everything. So I know, I know, okay, I can talk to this friend about it, like, because we've both had that experience, or, like, we both have spoken about it before. And so just finding people that you trust and are able to bridge together grief together and process together, it's just such a great blessing in my life. And and, yeah, it's just like, like I said, like, journaling, singing, walking, praying, like it's a whole thing, like it's not just one or two things I have to, I need to make sure. Okay, what is it I need? And like, I have all these things that I have to do before I can get back to life as, like, a baseline, like, Come stay, you know, like I used to, I used to be just like, Okay. I just as long as dome, and I don't do my Quran, as long as I be okay. But I'm like, No, I'm still like, and I was okay. You know what that says? And I think that, I think now it's, it's more, that's the word for like, the somatic whatever. And, you know, I mean, I guess you also do the breathing stuff, right? And so I'm just like, okay, that's more, you you there are other things, yeah. So, like, I need to engage all of, all of these things. And so I'm still learning, I guess, here and there, but yeah, for now, I guess, like, a walk costs nothing. Just get around, get your put your shoes on, and jazz walk and, like, look up to the sky, Dr on your phone, and just be present. Just be present. Where you are has been really, really helpful and useful more than I I care to admit. You know, because we, as, I think, as human beings, we just, we want to be so sophisticated, we're like, it must be some fancy thing. No, it's actually sometimes it's always the simplest, like, you know, for you, like the breathing, just focusing on the breath and breathing properly, free and accessible to every single human being, to experience sunshine. Well, not always sunshine, but experience the outdoors and to experience the breath and experience presence and connection with you know, nature around us is accessible to everyone. So, yeah, I love that you kind of show that there's a spiritual toolbox you have, and then just the wellness toolbox you have, which is so accessible, right? You're not going in these fancy, expensive programs. You just need the most simple things. And humans aren't complicated. We over complicate everything. You don't need to sign up for expensive program to feel better, you just need to give your your mind and body, the the love and compassionate needs, right? Yeah, yeah. I think it's because, like, you know, like, we're we're too scared to be silenced because we don't want to confront those things. Because when you're silent, like, yeah, your mind can say all the things that you have not had time to, like, confront with, but because I'm gonna lie, because I've had the time to confront those things. Like, I think, like, I'm not so afraid of being alone or being silenced, but I think for a lot, I mean, for a while, I think after the divorce, like, I just like, I just couldn't I needed to be distracted all the time. I just like, because it was just too hard. Like, just the facing the reality was too hard for me. I was just like, What do you mean? What do you mean, I'm, like, single now. What do you mean I have to, like, start all over again. What do you mean? Like, you mean? Like, you know, there was so many things that I was that I felt was too hard and too big for me to handle by myself. And I think that's why, like, I'm super again. I'm repeating myself, but I'm so grateful for my friends who just really let me, like, you know, like, say the things out. And so because, like, sometimes, you know, we think you. Yeah, our minds can be really mean, like, and it's not true, but we think, because we think it, therefore it must be true and it's not. And, like, it was only after, like, I voiced these things out there, they were like, what? Why would you think that that's so not what's happening, or that's not, that's not true at all, and blah, blah, blah, and I guess is the whole talk therapy and stuff. So, yeah, I'm just, I'm so grateful, and I pray for you to share, and I love for listeners to get more ideas on the simple ways that they can improve their quality of life. And it doesn't take a lot of money or investment, really, we start small and go from there. So brave. They have to be brave in even the healing legend is not an easy thing to do. I know I'm laughing and now, but it was really, really hard. Like, I mean, for many, many, many, many, like, you know, I always, I remember, in one of the because I journal so much, I kept a blog during those days, like, I remember thinking, like, you know, the nights just felt long as it just felt like it never, was never going to end, and every morning all over again, like, and so I remember, I remember how hard and difficult it is, but like, you know, just whoever is going through a difficult time, it really just take the just take one step at a time. Honestly, don't, don't start thinking about five years from now what's going to happen whenever just take one step, whatever is, whatever you need, and that moment just what you have to give to yourself, and then the rest of the path will, like, sort itself out. And I think, like, what really helped me, honestly, when I was, you know, going through that whole divorce and thinking like, Oh, my life is over. Like, nobody's going to marry me anymore. Like, oh, my dreams are done. So myself pity, just drowning and drowning in self pity, right? Like, I always like, imagine I will just close my eyes, even until today is so clear to me when I do it like, I just imagine myself, like 75 years old, surrounded by a husband and like grandchildren and everybody loves me, and like we're on a and we're on a park, on the porch, on my rocking chair, and I always in my head, I was like, you know, when I'm there, this, this divorce that had just happened would be like a blip in my history, like it was just a blip. And I'm like, Did that really happen? It will feel like a weekend, you know, because I'm like, 75 years old, and so this company of 75 years old, like, I was like, Oh, that was nothing. But right now it feels insurmountable. It feels too big. But like, that really helped me, you know, like, you know, when I read somewhere recently, I think Adam Grant posted it, he said that, like, there was research done that, like, sometimes mindfulness is not the answer. Sometimes it's thinking about the future that will help you overcome your current situation. Because, like, if you're already in so much pain, and you have to, like, Oh, now I have to be just here, then it becomes difficult, too much. But because I managed to imagine a better future, I imagine, like, even though it was just delusional, like, I don't how that 75 so I don't even know I'm gonna leave that long, but like, just keeping that, you know, image in my head, I was like, you know, when I get there, whatever is happening right now will just be like a moment. And so that really helped me, for this few for New Years, to just like, No, you are, you are moving towards that future that you're looking towards. But like, you know, that gave me, like, the hope, I guess, and the motivation to just like, Okay, one more day. Let me try again. Let me journal on my page. Let me walk one more. Walk around the block, like, you know, like at the time, like you don't know where it's going to lead you to, but it's just, just continue and like, just don't give up on yourself. I love that Amir. I really appreciate being really vulnerable and sharing those those hard parts that a lot of people aren't feel, don't feel comfortable yet to share. Right? So it's really valuable just to hear like you've been through a lot of dark night to the soul it sounds like, and some, really those times when nothing seems like it's going to going well, right? But we get out of it eventually, and then we learn to build a toolbox that helps us for because life is never perfect. It's never you know, it doesn't go according to what we want. And so when it goes down, we kind of know what to do, and we can build ourselves up again, right? I think that's really powerful to demonstrate how you've been through that experience and now you can more take much better care of yourself. Alhamdulillah, yeah. As we wrap up, I would love for you to share some pearls of wisdom with the listeners, some life lessons that you think are really important, that others might benefit from. Please. Um, I mean, I just want to emphasize again, how important it is to to believe that Allah did not make any mistake in creating you, which means that you don't erase whoever you are, you don't diminish any part of yourself, and just really know and appreciates their compassion for yourself and your for your journey. Because until you are okay with yourself, I think you will always be like, grasping for something outside of you, yeah, and you know that that will never end. And so you need to get to a point where you're like, you know, I mean all. Honestly after divorce, like, I, you know, they were most popular where they'd say, like, you have to say affirmations in front of the mirror. And I had to, and I thought, Okay, let me just try this. Let me just try this. And so I was like, I would look at the mirror, and I was like, Okay, I'm smart, I'm beautiful, I'm intelligent. And I honestly, the first time, I couldn't even look at myself in the mirror. I couldn't for like, weeks. I think I was just like, No, I don't want to see that person, and I don't believe what I'm saying and stuff. But, like, but I still did it because I was like, no, just, I mean, I just give you 30 days. Just try for 30 days. And then, you know, see what happens after that. And then, like, I also added, I said, like, I love Allah, and Allah loves me, and I trust Allah. And, you know, just I knew when I was saying it for that first few times, like, I did not believe it, but I was like, I'm just gonna try and like, Alhamdulillah. Like, slowly, you'll be like, because you say it, you want it to be true, and so you'll start doing things that will make that, you know, your brain will find ways to, like, prove that it's true, and stuff and, and, yeah, I've said that to other other women as well. It's just like, I know you don't believe it, but you gotta say to yourself, and you gotta, like, look yourself in the mirror, in the eye, you know, because I it was just so I couldn't even look myself in the mirror, like I just, I just had so much shame and just so much like, I just didn't like this person. Never forget now I'm just like, No, I have to get there. And so I'm because I'm not at this point, I want people to also feel that way about themselves, like it's not going to be easy, but you really you are not mistaken. You are needed here, Allah, meet you for a reason. There's a reason why you're here, and it's the purpose is a good one. And, and, yeah, Allah loves you, and so you should love yourself, yeah. And before we wrap up, I don't want to neglect the fact that you're a published author, that you've written a number of books, poetry and prose. Could you tell us a little bit more about your writing and how your spirituality or your your your healing path shows up in your writing? A little bit more about anything, if people want to learn about your your work, what they should look for? Oh, thank you. Yes. So my, so I've written three books so far. Alhamdulillah, my first two books poetry collections. And the first book actually was a collection of poetry that was written over 12 years, so since I started reading in magzali, so from like, 18 years old. And so you can see the whole like, that first book was, like, it literally documented like a 12 year journey. And then, I guess. And so that one is called desiring lights, and it won the David Press book awards, Alhamdulillah for the collections and anthology genre. And then my second book came out last year. It was called this Ramada lights. So this is also a collection of poetry, but it's one poem written every day of Ramadan over two years. Because Ramadan is, like, you know, a lot of Muslim favorite months. But it's also, as a writer and a poet, I feel like my words in Ramadan is clearer. It's just as honest as I could possibly ever in my life. And then my third book is a non fiction book. It's called, when you think you're falling. It is about my spiritual burnout, and how istighma, or steadfastness, has helped me in my journey getting out of that space that came out in March. And Alhamdulillah, it's been like a bestseller and came out on like, the Singapore national bestseller list. And it's just such a strange thing, because I was just like, I'm writing so very muslimy things. And like, Singapore is a secular country. I never felt like I really belong to or like, you know, and so for it to be in the best selling list was really like, it's still something that I'm just like, oh, but yeah. So yeah. So there's, there are, like, parts of my journey and like healing, I think, in all of my books. So, you know, whichever one you pick up first, I hope it it's an enjoyable and validating read for you. Inshallah, I hope so beautiful. Your books and your social media presence. What do they look for online? So I guess all the things you can find on my Instagram or through my Instagram at Amira Aslan writes, E, M, W, E, R, E, E, S, L, E, M, rights, great, excellent. Well, it's been such a pleasure, and I love learning more about your story and your authenticity and just like your realness. So thank you so much for Being on Rama throws today. Oh, Alhamdulillah, oh. Praise be to the one who showers us with Rahma. Thank you for listening until the end of the episode. 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