Living Through Grief and Grace from Damascus to Tennessee: A Conversation with Ustadha Zaynab Mansour Ansari

In this deeply moving episode, Rose speaks with Ustadha Zaynab Ansari about her spiritual awakening as a young American Muslim woman studying in Damascus in the 1990s, her journey through traditional scholarship, and the personal trials that reshaped her faith, including widowhood and becoming a single mother overnight. Zaynab explores how Islam’s spiritual core can offer healing in times of grief, the role of women scholars, and the need for honest community accountability in the face of abuse. Zaynab’s voice is one of fierce rahma-compassion, honesty, and grace as she reflects on her life’s path and shares hard-won wisdom for navigating faith, loss, motherhood, and the complexities of being a Muslim woman scholar in the U.S. today.

Ustadha Zaynab Mansour Ansari spent her formative years studying traditional Islam in Damascus, Syria, and has been active in Islamic education for over 20 years as a teacher, writer, and mentor. She teaches with the Ribaat Academic Institute and Jannah Institute and is currently a full-time instructor at Tayseer Seminary in Tennessee. Her work centers on deep scholarship, pastoral care, and creating sacred space for Muslim women’s voices and growth.

Find Ustadha Zaynab online at these places: https://tayseerseminary.org/, https://ribaat.rabata.org/, https://www.jannahinstitute.org/, IG handle: @ustadhazaynab, FB name: Zaynab Mansour Ansari

Transcript

 Rose Aslan (00:01.526)
Assalamu alaikum Zainab and welcome to Rahma with Rose. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here today.

Zaynab Ansari (00:08.452)
I'm happy to be here.

 Rose Aslan (00:12.553)
Yeah, thank you. We had been in touch for a while now because I just really felt connected to you. I just love your presence. And I felt called to ask you to be on Rahma with Rose. And so I was so pleased when you accepted the invitation and it took a while because we both had different different schedules. But wow, I'm so glad we finally made it and we can have this conversation together.

Zaynab Ansari (00:37.252)
I'm glad to be here and I actually appreciate you know the time difference because this is a great time to be up right now a little bit before a pleasure so Thank you for the opportunity

 Rose Aslan (00:44.652)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (00:48.201)
Wonderful. Great. So I'm going to start with the same question I asked all my guests in the beginning is can you remember the time when you first started getting interested in spirituality?

Zaynab Ansari (00:58.66)
You know, I love that question. it's sometimes I answer that question from the perspective of my parents because and the reason why I invoke their memories because I grew up in a deeply religious household. And sometimes a household can be religious without being overly spiritual. my parents were very religious people and

And I think very spiritual, each in their own way. And for me, my interest in spirituality was definitely awakened when I went to Damascus. So now I went there at my parents behest, but Syria has an amazing legacy of Suduk, of Tassawuf, of amazing people.

it's the Levant, it's the land of prophets and saints and martyrs. And you can sense that, you when you're in a place like Damascus. So I would have to say, if I could sort of put, if I had to put sort of like a time stamp on that memory, it's going to Damascus in the 1990s and learning from women, being exposed to female scholarship and

 Rose Aslan (02:03.509)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (02:09.908)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (02:22.292)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (02:24.138)
learning about traditions of Mowled and the care and Burda. So that's what I would say. And it was in Damascus for sure. We know again, that's why I always want to, I want to sort of give that credit to my parents, because I was only 19. And I was at, you know, I was in a stage in my life when I to be honest, Rose, I wasn't really quite clear what I wanted to do or who I wanted to be.

 Rose Aslan (02:28.061)
you

 Rose Aslan (02:32.35)
Wonderful. So how old were you at this time?

 Rose Aslan (02:42.601)
Hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (02:54.704)
And what's interesting is that prior to that experience, we lived in Iran. So, and this was well before the Arab Spring and, you know, and the tragic events that ensued thereafter in Syria. So prior to that, we were living in Iran and Iran was very much at that time, it was an amazing experience, but I don't really recall

a lot of spirituality in the sense of I found that the emphasis was very much more on a political Islam. So going to Syria was a really nice, yeah, it was really nice counterpoint to that. And there was definitely I just remember as a 19 year old, really kind of experiencing quite, quite a sharp contrast between the two, between the cultures.

 Rose Aslan (03:25.735)
Hmm

 Rose Aslan (03:31.785)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (03:51.436)
and the way that Islam was conceptualized, the way that it was practiced. And I would definitely have to say, even though I have a lot of love for both peoples, that being in Damascus was just, was a once in a lifetime experience for sure.

 Rose Aslan (04:08.777)
Could you tell me more about what Islam was like in your family and your spirituality before, know, in terms of what religion or spirituality meant to you? And then I'd love to hear how it shifted once you experienced the Maulads and Zikr and these sorts of things.

Zaynab Ansari (04:25.692)
So my parents converted to Islam and they converted to Islam in the mid 1970s. they, as new Muslims, my father especially, Rahimullah, became part of movements that advocated for the establishment of Islam in the West. So it was very much a, it was very much political Islam. And I don't say that sort of

 Rose Aslan (04:43.795)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (04:52.244)
I don't use that in the sense of any kind of pejorative just to be very transparent, just to issue that disclaimer. For me, being politically active is part of who we are as educated, informed, and committed Muslims. But I think that for my parents to be new Muslims and for their orientation to be through authors like Maududi and Qutb,

 Rose Aslan (05:09.084)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (05:20.105)
you

Zaynab Ansari (05:21.848)
that type of very activist kind of movement informed Islam sometimes I think can preclude certain paths, necessary paths of tezkiyah and spiritual growth. And so I'd like to think that in our, and traveling overseas and spending time in the Middle East, and especially in Syria, that I think

 Rose Aslan (05:23.368)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (05:51.53)
it broadened our perspective, really our perspectives as a family. And for me, I was really happy to be a part of that, to, I think, to come to the understanding that, yes, while it's very important for us to be politically informed and to advocate for the rights of

 Rose Aslan (05:55.912)
Mm. Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (06:20.234)
downtrodden Muslims and to be able to see the potential of the ummah to organize and how Islam is a vehicle for that unity and for that organization. It was also very important to learn about the principles of tezkiyah and the importance of working on the heart and the importance

 Rose Aslan (06:44.987)
How do you translate tezquia for those who don't know that word?

Zaynab Ansari (06:48.906)
Absolutely. So I used a few different terms. Tasawwuf is an Arabic term that often is translated as Sufism. But I think that sometimes it's a term that people don't understand. So I try to kind of supplement with other terms. My preferred term is probably Suluk or Tezkiyah. Suluk means traveling, the idea that we're all traveling to God. So being in Damascus, for example, I think it afforded us an opportunity

 Rose Aslan (07:04.444)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (07:10.407)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (07:17.156)
to recognize that we also have to work on who we are and how we are with Allah Ta'ala, with God Almighty. And tazkiyah is a Quranic term. qad aflaha man zakkaaha, when God refers to the soul in the Quran, God says that the person who is successful is the one that has purified.

or succeeded in purifying their soul. So Tezkiyah is that aspect of the Islamic tradition or sciences that looks at the purification of the heart and the soul.

 Rose Aslan (07:59.985)
Thank you for that explanation, So you were exploring these practices in Damascus, Syria. Tell me more about what it was like as a 19-year-old American young woman going to Syria in the 90s and experiencing these things.

Zaynab Ansari (08:03.012)
You're welcome.

Zaynab Ansari (08:14.244)
Hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (08:19.396)
Looking back, those were the best days of my life. Now at the time, I remember feeling rather confused because as I mentioned, we'd spent some years in Iran. I spent my formative years there and we were very much immersed in the political culture of Iran, which is wearing the chelda or going to, which is the very modest, all-encompassing

 Rose Aslan (08:25.594)
Hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (08:48.128)
over garment that women in Iran wear. You know, so wearing the chaldur and going to the protests, there were quite a few of those at that time. And these were usually organized by the government along the lines of sort of pouring out into the streets and protesting and kind of advocating for the cause of Muslims around the world, especially in Palestine.

You know, so organizing against kind of an expressing our opposition to Western imperialism, like that was very much a part of the culture. You did that sort of every Friday and so on after Juma prayer. So, you know, being in Iran, learning the language, you know, also being exposed to the, you know, revolutionary aspects of Shia Islam, you know, these were all part of

 Rose Aslan (09:27.257)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (09:44.108)
what I was exposed to growing up, again, my formative years, even though I should note that our medhab was always part of Ahl as-Sunnah, but my parents were very unity oriented, hence our time in Iran. So, but it meant that I was trying to find myself because when we went to Damascus, it was interesting, even though my dad's background was Lebanese, was via some generations. mean, my dad was born and raised in the United States. So,

 Rose Aslan (09:53.126)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (10:12.28)
going to Damascus in the 1990s, it was interesting because Syrians would kind of, they were pretty blunt. So they would look us up and down, me and my sister, and they would be like, are you Iranian? And I was like, okay. So they could clearly tell that we'd actually come from Iran, just, guess, maybe the way that we sounded, but the way that we dressed perhaps. And I began to realize that Damaskians especially,

 Rose Aslan (10:25.317)
Thank

Zaynab Ansari (10:39.044)
women in Damascus, and especially those who were affiliated with the various women's networks had a particular way of dressing and wearing hijab. And so because we didn't embrace that necessarily, Syrians would really kind of, they would be trying to figure out where are we from? they did not actually immediately conclude that, you've got some Lebanese heritage or what have you. So I found myself kind of

 Rose Aslan (10:43.909)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (11:08.638)
struggling to fit in in the beginning, I guess. And I think I found myself kind of struggling to relate to Syrians. But alhamdulillah, the longer that we stayed and made friends in our school, which is very international, I think it allowed us to, I think, have more of a comfort level and more appreciate the Syrian people and the culture.

 Rose Aslan (11:08.872)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (11:13.958)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (11:28.88)
What a fascinating experience. hope we're going to be able to read your memoir sometime about your formative years. Yeah. So tell me more about like, are some of the practices and teachings that stood out to you that you took away from your time in Syria?

Zaynab Ansari (11:34.046)
Inshallah, Inshallah, Inshallah, I'd love to write.

Zaynab Ansari (11:45.86)
For me, it was definitely the practice of the Mawlid. So the word Mawlid refers to the actual birthday of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, or the traditions that have arisen around the commemoration and the celebration of his birthday, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. And what's very, and I always like to point out to my students, Rose,

You know, a lot of American Muslims don't realize that, but our default Islam has definitely very much been influenced by Salafism. You even if we don't realize that. even though my parents certainly were never opposed to the practice of the Mawlid, I think there were definitely kind of people that they knew that were associates of ours who would have looked askance at the Mawlid and they would have said this is some kind of bid'ah or innovation, for example.

 Rose Aslan (12:22.584)
Mm-hmm, for sure.

 Rose Aslan (12:32.002)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (12:42.445)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (12:44.836)
But alhamdulillah, my parents were very open-minded. So one of the things that women in Damascus did, the ones that we were blessed enough to be around to enjoy their sohba, their company, was they would do a mawlad, which is basically, it's a gathering of women and they would have the drums, so they would have the percussion instruments and the women had just naturally beautiful voices.

And so they would sing these songs of poetry and praise poetry about the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. And I was like, my goodness, I'd never actually been a part of that. Because again, and I say this with all due respect for the diversity of your listeners, one of the things that I noted about my experience of Shi'a Islam in Iran was that there was a mournful aspect to it. So we didn't really attend a lot of gatherings, celebration, but we attended

 Rose Aslan (13:15.62)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (13:38.402)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (13:43.522)
the lamentations which were beautiful and stirring by the way, especially the lamentations around the martyrdom of Al Hussein, and Radhi Allah Ta'ala Anhu may God be pleased with him and accept. So there was that aspect of the culture that was definitely, think very much heavily steeped in lamentation in Iran. I remember that very vividly. So going to Damascus, was definitely, there was a shift there.

 Rose Aslan (14:02.806)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (14:13.24)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (14:13.804)
And so we began to attend these gatherings of molid that were just kind of inherently celebratory. So we would have molids and prompter molids at school in the classroom and the masjid associated with our school. And the women would celebrate whether it was someone putting on hijab or learning Quran was a huge feat, huge accomplishment, or someone was getting married or having a baby, there would always be a molid.

 Rose Aslan (14:26.359)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (14:42.244)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (14:43.044)
And even though I didn't, you know, I learned some of the songs and some of them I kind of, I don't know, I wish I'd been more curious at the time. Some of them I realized after the fact that, this is actually the burda that we were all singing. They were just very matter of fact about we're going to do a moment. And it was just, it was beautiful for me because growing up, you know, growing up in the United States, I just simply had not been exposed to communities that really observed that.

 Rose Aslan (14:51.479)
Mm. Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (15:12.32)
and others, again, as I mentioned, they kind of look askance. So to see women beautifully raising up their voices in song, expressing this love of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, I just, loved it. It was just, for me, it was a way that I connected with the seerah, the prophetic biography, that to this day really stays with me as a teacher of seerah.

 Rose Aslan (15:15.23)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (15:23.055)
Mm. Mm.

 Rose Aslan (15:31.383)
Mm-mm.

 Rose Aslan (15:37.284)
How interesting that's like brings it alive for you almost Yeah, the way you describe it. I can almost see myself sitting in that room with other woman, you know experiencing that molded Thank you. Could you kind of bring us further? know, how long did you say in Syria? And then what where did your path go after that?

Zaynab Ansari (15:40.6)
Yes.

Zaynab Ansari (15:54.276)
So altogether we were in the Middle East for a decade, kind of split half that time between Iran and Syria. So yeah, I wish I'd stayed longer. You know, again, when you're doing something, you're only like 19. So was there from the time I was 19 to I want to say 23, 24? 23, right? I was almost 24. So we came back at the end of 2000, beginning of 2001.

And I don't know, I guess I was kind of feeling this pressure, and by the way, not from my parents, but I guess kind of seeing people, some of my classmates leaving and going back to the United States and people were going to college or getting married or what have you. don't know, I guess I felt like, okay, I've been now in Damascus for four and a half years. I had the sense of maybe at the, well.

Looking back, I wish I could kind of go back and kind of advise myself at that time. But at the time I just felt like, okay, maybe I'm going to be left behind if I don't go back to United States and go to school. So that's what happened. Went back to the United States and went to school. I was a bit older than some of my classmates and felt, I think, a bit self-conscious about that. But again, I was only 24 or so. But that's the thing about studying in the Middle East, at least in some places, there's a lot of...

 Rose Aslan (16:57.065)
Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

 Rose Aslan (17:10.55)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (17:20.108)
Alhamdulillah, like it ended up being extremely helpful to what I do today. But there's a lot of sort of, you have to do a lot of qualifying study in order to get into certain programs. So there's a certain amount of sort of Arabic that you have to learn and catch up that you have to do in order to kind of get to a certain place in the program. So after doing four and a half years of studies, they're both in the school that we went to, as well as independent or private study. Then it was decided to come back to the States.

 Rose Aslan (17:28.45)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (17:34.164)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (17:45.058)
And so how was that to return from this really deep spiritual environment back to the US?

Zaynab Ansari (17:57.956)
I not prepared. It was culture shock. It was definitely culture shock. I didn't know, feel, I don't know, at the time I wish that, I know I wish that maybe we had thought a little bit more sort of intentionally about what can we, I don't know, what can we sort of put in place as a family and what conversations do we need to have? Because I don't know, I think that

My parents assumed that, and the reason that I keep invoking them is that a lot of this was very much kind of being directed by my mom, especially. I think that there was an assumption that because we had been in a very religiously devout environment in Damascus, that that would be kind of an immunity against what we would find, you know, on, on

college campus. don't know. It was just, it was culture shock. It was really, it was, there was a lot of, I think, pressure to sort of fit in to a certain environment that was very permissive. I mean, how did I think, I guess I would say ultimately, even though I emerged relatively unscathed, if I could go back and sort of, you know, kind of give advice to myself at that time.

 Rose Aslan (18:53.922)
Thank

 Rose Aslan (19:20.068)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (19:22.444)
I think there were some frank conversations that, and I'll say this by way of example, know, in Damascus, it's so strictly gender segregated. And I don't know, I don't really feel that I had the tools to be able to make that transition from a very strictly gender segregated environment to a college campus where it's just everything goes. It was very jarring, I have to say, looking back. And one of the things I've resolved as

 Rose Aslan (19:29.377)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (19:42.239)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (19:51.19)
Now, know, as a mother and, you know, as the mother of three young people, one of whom is in college and two who will be going to college within the next few years, inshallah, is just sitting down and having some very frank conversations and not assuming that my kids know certain things.

 Rose Aslan (20:01.309)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (20:11.453)
Yeah, that's great that you have that experience so you could better equip your children to go to that environment. beautiful. So tell me more about this path that you've been on. So what were you studying? What what was your spirituality like in this time? And how did you become the scholar who you are now?

Zaynab Ansari (20:31.332)
So this is, now we're coming back to the United States, right? Well, so I think that my mom was hoping, my dad was, think he was always more about kind of follow your heart and do what makes you happy when it, you know, in terms of school. But my mom was probably hoping that I would go into STEM because she really loves science. so, you know, it's kind of like, I guess sort of.

 Rose Aslan (20:43.072)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (20:50.048)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (20:59.198)
navigating, you know, these these various aspirations. But you know, I have to tell you, I mean, I just I walked into the very first college level history class that I took. I remember the professor. I remember which class it was. I remember the book. It was a world history class and I absolutely fell in love. And I never looked back. I took every single history class that that particular school had to offer. Then when I transferred to the four year university, I decided I'm going to be a history major.

 Rose Aslan (21:01.888)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (21:15.328)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (21:27.62)
And so I ended up majoring in history and Middle East studies. At that time, it was an interdisciplinary degree. And then I went back into the graduate program for history and took as much coursework as I could. I stopped just short of the MA, which is probably one of my regrets, because by that time I had three children. Shawl, I'd love to circle back. But no, from the very first history class I took as an undergrad,

 Rose Aslan (21:47.956)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (21:56.704)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (21:57.28)
through the classes I took in the, you know, as a graduate student, I just absolutely loved the humanities and I especially loved the history of the Middle East, Muslim world and world history. I took a lot of coursework. Alhamdulillah. Yeah.

 Rose Aslan (22:12.84)
That's wonderful. And so what led you to decide to become a scholar of Islam, a Muslim theologian?

Zaynab Ansari (22:20.504)
Hmm. So it's interesting because my emphasis throughout those years of college was definitely on humanities. it took taking those history classes and some, you know, and literature and language along the way, and also social sciences. So if I could pick up a political science or sociology class, I was also the person signing up for those classes as well.

 Rose Aslan (22:30.144)
you

Zaynab Ansari (22:46.722)
But I don't know if you're, honestly, Rose, if I were to be fortunate enough to go back to school today, which is something that I dream of, it's I guess on my bucket list, I would say, I don't know that I would actually go into a history department today, as much as I love the discipline. I think I would love to do perhaps comparative theology. So how did I end up teaching at a seminary and a theological seminary?

 Rose Aslan (22:52.959)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

 Rose Aslan (23:07.251)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (23:16.672)
It's, the story is, don't know, I think is a bit more prosaic than some people might expect. And I suppose that my training in history and religious studies, I think that has been helpful, alhamdulillah. Damascus definitely established the foundation. But again, the story is actually a bit more prosaic in that when I came back from Damascus, was probably, I was part of a cadre of people that had gone to

had traveled to the Middle East in the late 90s, aughts. So there's sort of a group of us coming back trying to figure out what we want to do. And for some of my male counterparts, they found themselves part of various initiatives, whether it was schools that were being established or sort of independent platforms or

 Rose Aslan (24:06.077)
Hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (24:14.084)
or kind of private study and instruction. then for, think for some of the women, I think it might've been more challenging for some of the women in that cohort in terms of figuring out where, we wanted to do and sort of what platform would support that. So in, when was this? Must've been in 2004. This is early 2004. I remember because my son,

 Rose Aslan (24:24.083)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (24:43.176)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (24:44.522)
Yeah, I'd just given birth to my first child, my son. And so I got a call really out of nowhere from someone who said, well, we're starting this website and we want to do Islamic Q &A and kind of advice type questions. And basically the idea is that people are going to write in with their questions and dilemmas and you, Ustadah Zaynab will be kind of the Muslim version of dear Abby is what he said.

So I'm like, okay. Yeah, I mean I like the idea that for because again first of all, it's like coming back from Damascus I really want to emphasize this to the audience Rose even though from the standpoint I think of honestly Islamic instruction here in the United States and even Western academia what I What I was able to do in Damascus was that was actually quite advanced but from the perspective of the traditional kind of framework of Islamic studies

 Rose Aslan (25:14.8)
I love it.

Zaynab Ansari (25:43.874)
I think there those who would have said that you need to kind of have various kind of qualifications before you kind of go into a certain type of teaching, if you will, because, you know, because knowledge has its etiquette, its sort of requirements and its prerequisites. So this kind of felt like a good fit for me, Rose, because I think that I would like to say for, know, for many of us as women, we often have this fear that somehow we're not qualified enough.

 Rose Aslan (25:49.406)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (26:09.182)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (26:11.17)
Although I think in most cases, alhamdulillah, we are, but this sense of not having the qualifications can be something that as women we experience perhaps more than men, even when men don't have those qualifications, they think they do. So it felt like a good fit, Rose, because I was doing some teaching locally, know, halaqat and durus and circles and women's

 Rose Aslan (26:16.67)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (26:25.597)
100%. 100%. Yeah.

 Rose Aslan (26:37.725)
.

Zaynab Ansari (26:40.548)
homes. But I wasn't really doing a lot institutionally because those pathways weren't always open to the women who are coming back. So this felt like a great fit because I could answer questions from the privacy of my of my home and it gave me the flexibility that I wanted because I had literally just when the brother called, my brother is here by the way, if he hears his story, he'll chuckle.

So when brothers they hear a call, my son Salah was probably just a few months old. I'm thinking maybe five, six months old or so. So I love the fact that, okay, I can actually take some of what I learned in Damascus, put it to good use, answering people's questions with my vast expertise and age, whatever, right? Alhamdulillah, and take care of my baby. it was, that's literally how I got my start. Honestly, I'd be very, I'd say this Rose, now,

 Rose Aslan (27:16.797)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (27:22.626)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (27:38.372)
Fast forward 20 years later, I look at some of those answers like, my goodness. I wish I'd had a little bit more of a kind of some of the benefit of wisdom of life experience, but I will have to say this. Alhamdulillah, I really tried my best to answer those questions with all sincerity. May Allah accept and may Allah forgive my shortcomings.

 Rose Aslan (27:40.889)
Thank

 Rose Aslan (27:48.765)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (27:58.117)
Yeah. I'm so curious, Zaynab, like what kind of things would you have wanted to change or how would you give advice differently nowadays with your experience?

Zaynab Ansari (28:09.38)
I felt like I was very, I had very strong views on certain things when I would answer some of those questions. So I think that questions, questions especially relating to parent marriage and parenting, I do think that the benefits of some wisdom and hindsight, that's always very, very important. And also now that my kids, know, so panel, now that I've seen the different ages and stages, I have to say there is,

 Rose Aslan (28:13.746)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (28:22.983)
Mm-mm.

Zaynab Ansari (28:38.332)
no manual for raising children. And even though we think that we have very kind of pronounced ideas about our child rearing philosophy, there's a lot that I've picked up along the way. So I would perhaps revisit some of those answers.

 Rose Aslan (28:41.147)
No.

 Rose Aslan (28:47.26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

 Rose Aslan (28:53.242)
Yeah. I appreciate your transparency and willingness to admit that, you know, you were young and you, you would redo, think all of us, if we looked at what we said in our twenties, we're like, my God. Right. but that's the benefit of, of growing older with maturity and wisdom. Right. So from there, Yeah, exactly. So from there, where did you go in terms of your scholarship and?

Zaynab Ansari (29:14.658)
Alhamdulillah, Alhamdulillah for the hindsight, you know.

 Rose Aslan (29:22.684)
teachings.

Zaynab Ansari (29:24.628)
So I was so I was so okay, so I again so I'd come back so I'm finishing up these college degrees and it took me a while because I I started my undergrad then got married and then we became parents Fairly quickly, so we're very inexperienced parents, you know, so it's you know Just balancing all these things and my husband was working a lawyer. Hemel was working several jobs.

 Rose Aslan (29:41.819)
you

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (29:51.844)
So there's this kind of like, I guess there's this timeline between 2001, because I actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I mean, I started school not long before 9-11. So there's this kind of window of 2001 to 2011. So that's a decade really. So over that decade, I'm going to school, I'm trying to work on my master's degree, know, we're raising our family. By that time, we have three children. And so I spent so that

 Rose Aslan (30:03.045)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (30:08.239)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (30:21.188)
So I spent about, so panel ended up being five years. Glad we're having this conversation, right? I had to go back and think about this. I spent actually five years in this world of online Islamic instruction when it was this pioneering thing, by the way. So I had the, really the honor of writing for a couple different platforms. So I started out answering questions, but I fairly quickly,

 Rose Aslan (30:36.989)
Yeah.

Zaynab Ansari (30:50.564)
transitioned into the role of TA and teacher, which I'm really grateful. And I really want to give a shout out to Sheikh Faraz Rabbani. He was one of my earliest mentors and he was so kind, mashallah, in giving me an opportunity to not just TA, but to teach classes because, you know, as you know, Rose, in order for the student to be able to kind of, in order to kind of make that journey from being a student to being a teacher,

 Rose Aslan (30:55.835)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (31:04.847)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (31:20.496)
You have to have some, you know, sort of, you have to have an opportunity to really kind of grow and learn and be able to apply things along the way. You know, even now as a teacher of Islamic scientists for the past 20 years, I still view myself as a student because I'm always going back and researching and reading and trying to find answers. So Alhamdulillah, that was a great experience over that decade, having an opportunity to work with scholars, learn from them, volunteer.

 Rose Aslan (31:28.741)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (31:35.483)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (31:50.564)
And at some point I went from being a volunteer to being on, you know, on staff, which I was really grateful for that. Because again, this was something I was able to do from home. But it changed and everything kind of changed and Alhamdulillah for the better in terms of that work becoming more permanent around 2013 or 2014. Yeah.

 Rose Aslan (32:00.409)
Yeah.

 Rose Aslan (32:14.113)
How have you supported yourself throughout these years in terms of your emotional, spiritual resourcing? I'm so curious as someone who has such a visible presence, who supports so many other people and offers pastoral care, I'm assuming, how do you support yourself?

Zaynab Ansari (32:21.059)
Yeah.

Zaynab Ansari (32:29.396)
thank you. That's a great question. I really appreciate your asking that. So kind of going back to what we were just saying, so what happened in 2013-14, that's when I began to work full-time at a theological seminary. And it's when I first began working at the seminary, I just, I think I viewed my role as this is an opportunity for me to actually

 Rose Aslan (32:37.723)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (32:56.302)
put into practice what I learned in Damascus as the women's scholar in residence in the community that I was serving. But you know, Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la had different plans. And so within my, my goodness, within I think a few weeks of literally like, this is like within a few weeks of stepping into that classroom for the very first time, I became a widow, like just out of nowhere. So now it's not just I'm in this space as a professional.

teaching and serving in this role, but then all of a sudden I was in this space of I need help, like immediately and in a very sort of profound way because all of a sudden I'm a widow and a single mother. So being in that seminary, and again I want to acknowledge just the people that were part of that journey from the very beginning, Sheikh Hasna al-Ashhab and

brother Nadim Siddili, who are the co-founders of the seminary. I they had just, they had really just hired me. We were just sort of getting to know each other and working together as a team and building this program. And then all of a sudden we're like, we're this nascent organization. And then all of a sudden this tragedy happened. So it, the seminary really, became a space of healing. It became this space that

 Rose Aslan (34:20.921)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (34:25.052)
allowed me to to recover my faith so at the same time as i'm trying to figure out how to teach again because i had to step away for it's actually a wonder i didn't step away for longer but i stepped away for a few months certainly i mean i i had to i was just yeah it was just a very very difficult time so i'm i'm going back into the classroom trying to figure out how to be a

a teacher again, but also how to recover my faith because it was just such a, it was a very, very shocking experience. yeah, I definitely, I guess I had to really experience kind of in a very kind of direct and personal and immediate way the need for

self-care and the pastoral aspects of Islamic education, the importance of psychology and spiritual psychology. We were so blessed to have a therapist in our community, Dr. Salman Tour. Yeah, was, SubhanAllah, mean, Allah Ta'ala was really teaching me some lessons. I think that strictly as a teacher, I don't know that I ever would have learned those lessons.

 Rose Aslan (35:37.411)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (35:50.073)
Yeah, for sure. I'm so sorry for your loss. know I can't imagine how devastating it would be to lose your husband and become a single mother at that time. So what stood out to you in that process that really resourced you?

Zaynab Ansari (36:08.462)
You know, I was so blessed, Allah's most merciful. I was so blessed that I had people that were so patient. Shah Hasnad Ash'hab, for example, never be able to repay him. So he's originally from Morocco and his training is in, apparently Moroccan scholars had a tradition of writing letters to the Prophet peace be upon him. So he trained in seminaries in Morocco, memorized Quran.

And he wrote his PhD at University of Indiana at Bloomington on religiosity and piety in the Maghreb. So he comes from a deeply spiritual tradition of teachers in Morocco, but teachers who are also very kind of like socially and politically active, by the way. But so we would, so my mom and I would go and...

And my mom and dad as well, yeah, we as a family, we would just kind of go and sit with him and he would talk to us a lot about the Qadar of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

 Rose Aslan (37:18.123)
Would you define Kothera's fate or how would you define that?

Zaynab Ansari (37:21.534)
Yes, so he teaches actually a class, Salook, Islamic spirituality class based upon the works of Ghazali, especially Ghazali's dear beloved son Ayyuha al-Walad. And my goodness, Shah Hassan can really bring that book to life because he has a way of speaking about Qadr, this idea of this is what is Qadr. So Qadr is, and being able to read the Qadr is what he says, like reading the Qadr of Allah in our lives.

It's being able to interact with the decree and decisions and really kind of like the power that God unfolds in our lives in the small ways and also in the ways that very kind of that are life-changing in ways that we don't always want to accept or embrace.

but we ultimately realize that all we can do is just say we surrender to God's will. and you know, and I, the reason why I emphasize that Rose is I was really, I was very angry when my husband passed away and I had to grapple with that because I was not really accepting of Allah Ta'ala's Qadr. Like that was the last thing I wanted to be was a widow and a single mom, so.

 Rose Aslan (38:32.696)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (38:48.341)
I'm just so grateful that Shahazan was so patient, know, and because he just whenever we needed to talk he was always willing to talk about what does this mean to accept the Qadar of Allah? What does it mean to come to terms with this? What does it mean to accept that Allah has written certain things that can be difficult and painful and how do you kind of deal with that and not become embittered so

 Rose Aslan (39:09.429)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (39:14.776)
You know, so we spent a lot of time, you know, in conversation. And then another thing too, that was so helpful was that the seminary is not just about the curriculum, but, you know, we have practices of daily dhikr and Quran and spiritual retreats. And that ended up being so incredibly helpful and healing. And those are things that were very, very beneficial.

for us as a family.

 Rose Aslan (39:45.175)
Yeah, it's beautiful that you had those resources at hand. I'm curious about you said you're you have this anger towards Allah and I find that a lot of Muslims I speak to feel frustrated, angry. They don't understand even I had a conversation with my 10 year old son recently and he he was just questioning me like why is Allah letting this happen to the Ghazans people in Gaza? Right. That's like, I don't know exactly. I don't have an answer why he's like, I don't understand. Like, I feel angry. You know, like what do you

Zaynab Ansari (39:52.964)
Thank

 Rose Aslan (40:13.216)
Tell people who experience that anger, you've gone through it yourself and who just feel like they just you can't explain what you're witnessing, what you're experiencing. What do you say to that?

Zaynab Ansari (40:23.198)
I think your son is very wise to ask that question. It's a question that I also have asked myself because I looking back Rose, see, even though it seemed like it was the end of my world, I was also able to see aspects of Allah's rahma, mercy and compassion. I'll give you an example. One of the things that that my children might, because my children are older now and one of the things that we

we say to ourselves and that we say as a family when we feel sad and we miss their father is we feel gratitude that Allah allowed us to be able to mourn him safely, you know? And that was not something I thought about at the time, but we're looking at images of Palestinian families that don't even have, there's not even a body of their loved one that they can bury. You know, they're having, I mean, it's unfathomable.

 Rose Aslan (41:07.208)
Hmm.

 Rose Aslan (41:17.928)
Exactly.

Zaynab Ansari (41:22.156)
that a parent would have to pick up the body parts of their child in a bag. mean just... So when I see what the Palestinians are having to deal with, you know, I feel grateful to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala because I know that I don't have their level of Iman. I wouldn't have been able to handle certain things. So, but to your son's question, yeah, it's a question that I have asked myself.

 Rose Aslan (41:37.798)
you

Zaynab Ansari (41:51.78)
time and time again because the Palestinians, mean, they're such a long suffering people. And after enduring over 75 years of this brutal military occupation, dispossession, dislocation, poverty, exile, war, that they're having things that are being done to them that honestly, in studying previous

atrocities and Holocaust rows, there are things that they are experiencing that are just there's no precedent whatsoever. And this is where I would invite your son and really all of our audience members that I think that whatever type of political or geopolitical or economic whatever or whatever kind of like worldly

based, dunya based analysis we can bring to bear, all those frameworks are going to fall short. We have to understand this within the context of the qadr of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and that

the suffering as horrific as it is, is going to be replaced with a level of bliss and happiness for the Palestinians, that my hope is that they will not have any recollection of the trauma that they experienced in this world and conversely, the people who have visited this violence and this genocide and this atrocity who have

perpetrated this. In the Akhira, Rose, I am 100 % convinced that they're not going to have any recollection of the ease and privilege they enjoyed. That I read the Quran now, and when I read these verses about paradise and hell and bliss and punishment, I am convinced that this is why the Akhira, this is why

Zaynab Ansari (44:05.004)
the afterlife exists. It's when I do go to that place of anger, I remind myself Rose that to fall into anger is to fall into sort of it's like it's to fall into this trap of

 Rose Aslan (44:06.473)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (44:32.972)
I think of like, it would be like falling into this trap of sort of misdirected anger against Allah Ta'ala and it would be blaming God for the crimes that certain people have decided to commit against an innocent population. I don't want to do that because there are previous groups of Ahlul-Kitab, people of the scripture that experienced their own trauma that

 Rose Aslan (44:47.029)
Hmm.

 Rose Aslan (44:51.061)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (45:02.272)
abandon their belief in God as a result of that and I don't want to make the same mistake.

 Rose Aslan (45:07.181)
Yeah. So how do you support people who I'm sure that people come to you in confidence and they're struggling with their faith and just with life in general, how do you support them through that?

Zaynab Ansari (45:18.242)
Hmm That I would have to say, you know, there's there's one of the one of the things that I did when my husband passed away was I I listened to a lot of podcasts I found that very comforting and You know, there's something that I remember from one of the podcasts I used to listen to now I'll share that and I Don't know it's like in the moment I was like, I'm just not sure but looking back I think it was really great advice

And this is again...

to anyone who's kind of like dealing with very difficult emotions, that we have to understand that these emotions are actually given to us by Allah Ta'ala and He created in us the capacity to have, to experience these very difficult emotions and even though the emotion might seem like all engulfing,

 Rose Aslan (46:16.679)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (46:18.576)
And I do believe that Allah ta'ala has given us the ability to sit with that emotion and to feel that emotion very strongly, but that ultimately we have the ability to decide that we're not gonna be trapped by that emotion. And I'll give you an example of this. You know, when I...

When my husband first passed away, I felt his loss so keenly that, I mean, it actually really like my heart ached. And I felt like I'm always gonna be kind of like trapped in sort of these swirling emotions that are so difficult and dark and negative. know, it really, felt like these emotions are interminable. But then I realized that no, that Allah has given us as human beings a level of strength and resilience.

And yes, we do have to feel that emotion in the moment and it might just feel like it's just this is not something that we can deal with. But Allah has given us the ability to where we are able to transcend that emotion. And I think hopefully get to a space of yes, I know what it's like to feel that way, but I also know that there are these moments

of some light and ease that Allah Ta'ala is going to give me.

 Rose Aslan (47:48.379)
Yeah, that's really inspiring, Zayma. I appreciate you saying that because that is what you're talking about. Kind of like you're bridging the paths of Islam and kind of modern day psychology understanding, you know, the idea of sitting with emotions. But I love how you're explaining that they're from Allah, you know, in modern psychology, they don't mention the divine, they don't mention the sacredness of the emotions, you know, and they're given to us, but we don't have to let them control our lives. Right. It's really powerful.

to hear you talk about that. So you're the only woman scholar, right, at your seminary. there's more, I see more and more women scholars in the past very few years, but you're one of the pioneers perhaps in the US context, right? What has it been like to be one of the first kind of more prominent Muslim American women who is teaching Islam, would you call yourself a Muslim theologian perhaps, amidst so many men?

Zaynab Ansari (48:47.684)
You know, and it definitely is a very male-dominated space. I, subhanAllah, I wish that we as women could sort of have these conversations and support each other. I think that it's long overdue. mean, there are various sort of WhatsApp groups and what have you that a lot of us are on, but I just think being there in person to support each other is so important. For example, I went to a community not long ago.

and I met the female scholar in residence and poor thing. We just wanted to give each other a hug because she's doing this work and her colleagues are like six or seven men. SubhanAllah. So it is a male dominated space, absolutely. And let me say this, I'm deeply grateful to the support of my male colleagues because at the end of the day, Alhamdulillah, we've been doing this work together now for 10 years and Allah ta'ala has blessed us.

 Rose Aslan (49:24.261)
Mm, well.

Zaynab Ansari (49:44.462)
to do this sort of work even amidst the disagreements that sometimes we will have, which is just part and parcel of this kind of work. I have to acknowledge that for women, for us as women to be, I think to be active and effective in these spaces, it does require a level of solidarity and support from our male colleagues. Hamdillah, and I've been blessed to be in an environment that I think overall has been very supportive.

 Rose Aslan (49:48.515)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (50:06.575)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (50:13.572)
But I will have to say that there are, you know, there are times when, I'll give you an example. mean, you know, so we have the Rabat retreats that we do as part of our program. Rabat is a term that historically referred to the idea of the Muslim, you know, sort of Ghazi or warrior who's also the devotee on the kind of borderlands of Islam.

 Rose Aslan (50:19.089)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (50:37.617)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (50:38.626)
that they would go out there to worship and kind of defend the land and so on. So the concept, it takes its name from that. So it was really interesting is that for my male colleagues, for the sheikh and the other professors at the seminary, they just attend the Rabat without thinking about, well, I have to kind of plan around this and plan around that. So I think for the students, especially the female students, we will...

 Rose Aslan (50:40.081)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (50:45.058)
Mm.

 Rose Aslan (50:55.767)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (51:05.036)
And this is one of the things where I think is really helpful for me as a woman to be in this space is we can have these candid conversations, Rose, about the fact that for us as women, and I've really, I strongly believe this, that our experience of spirituality is really mediated by our biology in a way that men just cannot comprehend, right? It's like, you you want to get up and do the robot and it's like, my goodness, well, you know, my cycle has started or this thing has happened or that thing, you know? So,

 Rose Aslan (51:12.079)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (51:21.065)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, very true.

 Rose Aslan (51:30.555)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (51:34.076)
that that that is definitely I would love to have more sort of candid conversations amongst women, scholars, teachers, students of knowledge kind of regarding, you know, how we accommodate for those aspects of our feminine biology when say we want to go to a retreat or

 Rose Aslan (51:51.754)
Mm. Yeah.

Zaynab Ansari (51:57.828)
pray or read or Quran and then we have to kind of navigate these things. So that's one, I think that's one thing that I would like to say that as a woman in these spaces, I think having that perspective and that empathy is really important. And then to your original question, sort of being a woman doing this kind of work. So it's interesting Rose, because when I first came to Tennessee, the title that,

 Rose Aslan (51:58.66)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (52:13.719)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (52:26.084)
that the brother wanted sort of, you that he suggested was kind of women's scholar in residence. And to this day, people ask me about that. I'm kind of reluctant to use it because I don't know, for me, there's a certain level of, I don't know, I do think that there are certain qualifications that should be attached to that title of scholar in residence, whether one is male or female. And I view myself more as someone who is serving the community.

 Rose Aslan (52:36.391)
Hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (52:54.86)
But I also do have to acknowledge the role is historic in that when I first started 10 years ago, the idea that a community is going to hire a woman full time to kind of serve this capacity. For some people, they are really scratching their heads. Like, what does this mean? What kind of work do you do? Is this some kind of strange Western innovation of feminism? mean, it's really interesting. Like even to this day, Rose, it's possible to go to a community. They're like, well, what is an ostada? And what does that mean?

 Rose Aslan (53:05.346)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (53:23.4)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (53:24.376)
What do you do? And is this something that has, you know, kind of a precedent in the Islamic tradition? So it's still kind of a topic that I think kind of raises interesting conversations and questions.

 Rose Aslan (53:34.455)
Yeah Yeah for sure. Yeah interesting you mentioned feminism. I'm so curious to hear your take on it mean obviously first of all, there's so many types of feminism, right? There's like Islamic feminists white imperial feminists, but what is your take on? how it affects the muslim community specifically and you know, I in my perspective I see a lot of women going that direction because they haven't been served by the muslim community in fact often they've been mistreated and treated very in very poor ways where they just felt like they the only

path they had was out of the community. Right. So I'm so curious to hear your take because I think it'll be a little softer than what you hear from a lot of the mainstream male scholars.

Zaynab Ansari (54:12.708)
Well, I I don't, let me say this, While I do not identify as a feminist, I do not believe that feminism, it's almost become sort of like the scapegoat, I think, for a lot of the problems that we see in our community. And that, to me, that is of a lot of concern to me. I mean, I think that...

 Rose Aslan (54:14.159)
I

Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (54:26.915)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (54:36.664)
There are some people amongst the brothers, amongst the male scholars that they bring a certain level of energy to their excoriation of feminism that I frankly wish they would kind of bring to other things, right? Other conversations.

 Rose Aslan (54:47.961)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, this is the issue, right, of there being many types of feminism, but they're just saying feminism as if it's one monolith, right?

Zaynab Ansari (54:57.878)
Yeah, yeah. And you know, again, while I don't identify as a feminist, think that I was raised by a woman that was always very strong and independent minded. you know, and it's, for me, I view being taught by women that were both experts in the traditional Islamic sciences,

as well as women that were highly educated within academia, I would like to think that maybe I see the topic with a little bit more nuance. There are aspects, let me just say this, methodologically speaking, Rose, there are aspects of feminism with which I disagree. There are aspects of feminism that I would say run counter to my understanding of Sharia. I do wanna say that, but at the same time,

I don't view feminism as sort of the source of all that is sort of like, I don't know, wrong in the Muslim community. mean, there are people that want to blame feminism for a number of problems, whether it is things happening within families, within marriages, and this notion that if a woman should express her...

 Rose Aslan (56:07.342)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (56:21.764)
views on a certain subject or if a woman should express her dissatisfaction or if a woman should advocate for a certain amount of autonomy or independence that therefore she must be one of these Western feminists, I fundamentally disagree with that because my teachers, all of them, even though they probably most of them would not have identified as feminists, all of my teachers emphasize the importance of

 Rose Aslan (56:33.122)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (56:51.132)
advocating for our rightful role in society on the basis of the honor that Allah ta'ala has given us as women. And some would say that's actually very kind of feminist sort of proposition, but every single one of them advocated for that. You know, so yeah, and I realized that my answer was not necessarily kind of sort of on one side or the other Rose, but for me, I like to kind of view the topic with a little bit more nuance.

 Rose Aslan (56:56.419)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (57:05.112)
Yeah.

 Rose Aslan (57:14.2)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (57:18.922)
And I frankly do have benefited from reading quite a bit of the good work out there by Muslim feminists, especially on sort Quranic hermeneutics and so on.

 Rose Aslan (57:31.3)
I'm curious, which kind of scholarship have you benefited from?

Zaynab Ansari (57:37.005)
Well, know, I have, I'm obviously not at the seminary, you know, inshallah if you ever come to visit, I have a number of books on Islamic feminism I've collected along the way, whether it's by Saba Mahmood or scholars like, Dr. Selina Ibrahim's recent work on women in the Quran has been one that I've enjoyed reading.

 Rose Aslan (58:02.978)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (58:08.953)
I've read some of the work that going back some years by even by people like Fatima Mernisi even by Iranian feminists as well. So I've actually read quite a few of those works over the years. And I can understand even though I might not agree with their articulation necessarily of solutions to certain problems, I can kind of overall understand where they're coming from. Even someone like Dr. Amina Wodudek and I've read her books and while I've

 Rose Aslan (58:18.38)
Yeah.

Zaynab Ansari (58:35.812)
Sometimes I, some years back I wrote a piece kind of critiquing some aspects of her argument. I can still understand where a lot of Muslim feminists are coming from.

 Rose Aslan (58:45.258)
Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that and even just understanding someone's perspective rather than just immediately criticizing, right? The most important thing is being able to engage other people's perspective and we don't have to agree with everyone, right? It's really an honor to have you here just to have this conversation and hear your perspectives. And just I feel that you have so much rahmah in the way you speak about others and their approaches, be it similar or different. Something I really appreciate. On to a difficult

issue that came up recently, we briefly discussed it before our conversation, is the scandal with with Sam Sharif and many other scandals of Muslim male scholars who have been doing things that were very against Islam in secret essentially and many other scholars. How do you approach this? Like so many people I know are just so angry and frustrated, especially because things were, you know, the the institute was kind of covering that for a while. A lot of people knew

This is definitely an epidemic. What do you say? What do you address to people who are just frustrated and angry? And how could the Muslim American community begin to heal from this and stop this from happening in the future?

Zaynab Ansari (59:54.82)
You know, Rose, think people are definitely are fully justified in feeling angry and frustrated. You know, but there's something that you mentioned earlier, if I can kind of speak to that about women feeling unsupported in their respective communities. And I will say this, that my experience of community has been that I don't think that Islam is intended to be practiced in isolation. So I would really say that

 Rose Aslan (01:00:06.07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:00:24.164)
part of being in community is sometimes rolling up our sleeves and being in the trenches and doing that work and dealing with people even when they're not the easiest to deal with. I think there are important spiritual lessons there and I say that as someone involved in community work for a long time now. But going back to that to your question regarding the Quran teacher, I was shocked. I mean, I have to say I was shocked. Even though there are people that I've talked to who are saying they're not surprised, they feel that we've got any number

 Rose Aslan (01:00:51.212)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:00:53.324)
of sort of social problems within the Muslim community. I did read the affidavit and I was shocked and I would really recommend that people not read it. But I needed to know exactly what, I needed to know what was the case about, what were the accusations and it's such, if the facts has presented the affidavit are true, it's such an egregious abuse of, and criminal abuse of,

 Rose Aslan (01:01:01.676)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:01:22.944)
Power and and religious authority. It's just is absolutely shocking now Let me say this Rose the anger the frustration all that's justified. I think the institutional response could have been a lot better I think that there was one statement put out that was really quite the satisfactory then another statement was put out that at least acknowledged just how shocking the whole thing was and the swift action that they took now one of the things I will say Rose again, I'm not affiliated at all with the organization that

 Rose Aslan (01:01:37.462)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:01:40.908)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:01:48.287)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:01:50.928)
That had hired this individual. I don't teach for them. I you know only know some of the teachers kind of in passing But I did because I do believe in Hussein, I'm thinking well of our Muslim Brothers and sisters so I did reach out and the leadership was quite receptive and answering my questions. I did reach out So my understanding based on what they told me was that they were equally shocked and they had no idea that he had been engaging in this type of behavior

 Rose Aslan (01:01:57.566)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:02:13.589)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:02:20.546)
that they thought that this was initially just between him and an adult, you know, an adult student, and they had not realized at all that there was a minor involved. So I just wanted to mention, Rose, that that was the understanding that was conveyed to me. I know that there are some views out there along the lines of that perhaps there were complaints and there should have been, that earlier action should have been taken to,

 Rose Aslan (01:02:25.739)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:02:46.719)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:02:49.124)
to look at this individual, but I really can't comment on that at all. But I will say this, I think the problem is, and I'll say this just being 100 % transparent with the audience, for a while, as someone who's very firmly in these spaces of traditional Sharia and Islamic studies and interacting with a lot, many male scholars, my sense of this was that this must be very kind of limited. was really kind of hoping, right?

 Rose Aslan (01:02:51.364)
Yep.

 Rose Aslan (01:03:10.987)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:03:16.905)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:03:18.434)
that this is something that's limited to kind of a few bad apples, so to speak. Again, I don't have any sort of evidence beyond anecdotal to sort of support that, but that was sort of my hope that this is really limited to a few bad apples. However, I do feel based upon my conversations with female scholars, Dr. Ingrid Madsen, Mashallah, who's doing amazing work with the Khurma project, I do feel that there may be more sort of systemically

 Rose Aslan (01:03:21.695)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:03:41.171)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:03:48.17)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:03:48.278)
that we need to address because there are a number of people, you know, from within our communities who are reporting that they had an experience, whether it's people that they saw inappropriate behavior or they themselves were harassed or victimized, that there are too many people that are coming out and saying that they actually had an experience

say with a teacher and they were much younger. I mean we have to pay attention to these accounts and I think that we have to validate the concerns of our community members and I think that we have a lot of work to do as institutions so that we can restore trust because I think a certain amount of trust has been lost and I don't think it's possible for us to kind of say okay it's a couple bad apples.

 Rose Aslan (01:04:36.156)
Mm-hmm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:04:43.692)
we can kind of just kind of go back to the way that we were doing things. No, I think that we have to make sure that we have policies, training, and that we're putting into place a culture where we're going to have transparency and accountability and zero tolerance for people to engage in criminal activity under the cover of teaching the Islamic sciences. That is unacceptable.

 Rose Aslan (01:04:44.67)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:04:54.686)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.

and

 Rose Aslan (01:05:06.961)
Yeah, I really hope that all that they will hear you that when you speak to people and that those measures definitely get put into place in child and their future. So we've we've gone in a long journey, it feels winding throughout your history and your life and all these experiences. I'm just so grateful for you to share. And as we wrap up, I just want to ask you if you can share with the listeners, what is one what are some pearls of wisdom you want to leave them?

Zaynab Ansari (01:05:36.036)
I'd have to say that on a personal note to our dear listeners that if your parents are still with you it's really important you know even if they're even if the relationship has been difficult it's very important to ask Allah ta'ala for the blessing of forgiveness

and to just to be able to go and tell them that you love them, you appreciate them. I think if there's one thing that I wish I'd done differently, Rose, and I could go back, it's like, I wish I'd spent more time with my father. He passed away two years ago this month. sometimes I'll catch myself saying, Allah ar-Rahman, sometimes I'll catch myself saying, know,

 Rose Aslan (01:06:24.649)
Sorry for your loss.

Zaynab Ansari (01:06:31.224)
Did I really kind of sit down and just spend time with him and just ask him, you know, dad, what was this like? Or what was it like for you becoming a Muslim in the 1970s, say from a Lebanese Christian background and knowing that you were going to kind of lose a supporter, friends and family? Like, why did you take this step? you know, I just, I don't know. think they were like, I assumed, I think that as a, when I was younger,

 Rose Aslan (01:06:47.565)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:06:58.242)
I just assumed that my parents were just sort of like invincible. They were kind of like larger than life for me. now that I'm, so Pamela approaching my 50s, I'm putting myself more in their shoes when perhaps they were my age. And I don't know, there are certain questions that I wish that I'd gone back and asked in conversations that I wish that I'd had. So that would be my advice that if you are fortunate enough to have parents and they are

 Rose Aslan (01:07:01.961)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:07:24.425)
you

Zaynab Ansari (01:07:27.266)
with you and they are healthy and you're able to have those conversations. Just kind of like sitting down with them without any kind of assumptions, preconceived notions, and just hearing their stories I think is so important and so valuable.

 Rose Aslan (01:07:44.465)
I really resonate with that right now, Zainab. So thank you so much and I hope listeners benefit from our conversation, from learning and hearing your perspective. just, I so appreciate it. I just want to say again, the amount of rahmah you have in the way you present yourself, in the way you speak and clearly I haven't seen you teaching, but clearly the way you teach probably also carries that with you, which is why it's so wonderful to have you on Rahmah with Rose today.

Zaynab Ansari (01:08:10.9)
Thank you Rose. It's my pleasure to be here. I just mashallah I just when you first reach out to me. I just love the title the podcast the idea behind it As women we need to support each other So it's definitely an honor to be here and I just have to say that Rahma absolutely It's it's from my mom. My mom is african-american. May Allah preserve her she herself was raised by a single mother also african-american and

 Rose Aslan (01:08:36.239)
Mm.

Zaynab Ansari (01:08:39.076)
One of the things that my mother has always said, you know, is that these like, even though her mother was a Christian, that these characteristics of rahmah and gentleness and all these beautiful things that we learn about from the Sunnah of the Prophet peace be upon him, that was something that was really kind of handed down to my mom and that she has also handed down, I think, to me and my sister. So, Alhamdulillah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

 Rose Aslan (01:08:57.831)
Hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:09:06.664)
That's so that's so clear that it came down that's definitely from family lineage So if people want to find you online if they want to learn more about you, where can they go?

Zaynab Ansari (01:09:17.124)
Sure, well there's always our website, Tayseer Seminary, and I am on social media. I run those accounts myself, Alhamdulillah. So you can find me under Zainab Mansour Ansari on Facebook and Ustadhah Zainab on Instagram. regarding the other platforms, Alhamdulillah, those are the main platforms right now. Wow. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Rose. JazakAllah khayran.

 Rose Aslan (01:09:24.465)
Mm-hmm.

 Rose Aslan (01:09:36.733)
Wonderful and if people want to find it though that your information also be the show notes too. So Thank you